Immigrants With Guns...

This is a discussion on Immigrants With Guns... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey Isn't that inaccurate to say? They may lose the right to keep and bear arms, and particularly the right to carry ...

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Thread: Immigrants With Guns...

  1. #46
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Isn't that inaccurate to say? They may lose the right to keep and bear arms, and particularly the right to carry a concealed firearm, but "the right to defend themselves"?

    Would that mean they are not allowed to raise a block if someone is punching them in the head?!

    (P.S. I love this forum, even if it were only for the "gah" smilie!! Holy moly that is a cool one! )
    OK; precision in use of language is a good thing, and literally as written, you're right. My apologies.

    Contextually, "immigrants with guns", I'll stand by my comment.

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  3. #47
    Member Array MarkM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrioticRick View Post
    After reading this thread now I'm confused. How many different ways can you legally have a gun as a non citizen.
    1) As a legal permanent resident (green card holder) you have the same rights to own a firearm as a citizen under Federal law (state law can be different: MA does not allow handgun ownership for non-citizens living in MA ... but will issue a non-resident CCW to a non-citizen in NH, which is why I moved to NH not MA )

    2) A legal temporary resident (e.g. H-1B work visa holder) or even a visitor (tourist visa or visa waiver) can have a gun under the following circumstances (from the 1968 gun control act, section 922 subsection y):

    (y) PROVISIONS RELATING TO ALIENS ADMITTED UNDER NONIMMIGRANT VISAS.:

    (1) DEFINITIONS.:In this subsection:

    (A) the term "alien" has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(3));and

    (B) the term "nonimmigrant visa" has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)).

    (2) EXCEPTIONS.:Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is:

    (A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;

    (B) an official representative of a foreign government who is:

    (i) accredited to the United States Government or the Government's mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States;or

    (ii) en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited;

    (C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State;or

    (D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
    So in theory Mr Terrorist could (if allowed to legally enter the US) get a hunting permit and use that to get a gun.
    First rule of a gunfight: Carry a gun

  4. #48
    Member Array TireFryer's Avatar
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    Well said! I am also a Permanent Resident/Legal Immigrant (citizenship in the works ) and am very Pro 2A and also carry, as does MarkM. You follow the rules, the rules work in your favor (hint to all the illegals out there! )

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkM View Post
    I am a legal permanent resident of the US (not yet a citizen) and I am extremely pro second amendment. I carry 16hrs a day 7 days a week and go shooting at the local range at least weekly with my handguns and a couple of those "evil black rifle" things

    The second amendment applies to me just as much as it applies to a US citizen, and additionally Federal law allows legal permenent residents to own and purchase handguns (if they have been a resident of that state for 3 months (as proven by providing utility bills for the NICS check).

    The Constitution makes a very clear distinction between sections that apply to citizens and those that apply to "persons"

    Preamble:



    Article I Section 2:



    (note the clear distinction above between person and citizen, citizens are a subset of persons)

    Article II Section 1:



    (again we have a distinction between person and citizen, and now resident is thrown into the mix as being different from person and citizen)

    Article II Section 2:



    (here the militia is mentioned, not people, citizens, or residents)

    Amendment I:



    (the first amendment applies to all people not citizens, residents, militia, states, presidents, or cartoon characters)

    Amendment II:



    (a militia (not all people, citizens, or residents) is necessary for the security of a free state, and all people (not just citizens, militia, or residents) have the right to keep and bear arms!)

    The 4th and 5th also apply directly to the people.

    Amendment IX:



    (people, not citizens or residents, have other rights too)

    Amendment X:



    (again, people)

    Amendment XIV:



    (getting more complex, a definition of citizens as a subset of persons, and a clarification of how laws apply to citizens and persons)

    Amendment XV:



    (again a clear distinction that some rights apply to all persons (right to keep and bear arms), but other rights (right to vote) applies only to those persons who are also citizens)

    Hopefully this makes it clear that the Founding Fathers intended all people to have the right to keep and bear arms.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    For those that choose to enter this county Legally, and work here legally, yet not seek citizenship, I feel their right to carry in this country should be subject to reciprocity with their home country. How many Canadians live and work here legally, and can carry Concealed Weapons? How many US citizens traveling or living in Canada legally can carry? Same for the UK, Japan, Mexico, etc.

    When it comes down to it, a legal resident, whether US citizen or not, can carry or obtain a permit almost anywhere it is required to do so.

    This same courtesy is not extended to US citizens that hold valid Carry Permits here, when they travel to other countries. If we are denied the privelege in Canada, then no Canadians can Carry here unless they want to become Citizens, and so forth.

    I don't think thats a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be that when you went to Canada, do you have the same rights as every other Canadian? You do.

    Surely you are not saying that an immigrant should follow thier laws and not American laws when living in the USA? Because thats what your argument is based on.

    And as becoming a Permanent Resident carries all kinds of investigations into your suitability as a person to live in the USA, these aren't just any old schmo coming in to the country. Non-immigrant aliens have less checks (the infamous student visa is one of these), but other than the exceptions posted earlier, they are not allowed to own guns anyway.

    Fact is, Permanent Residents often have American families and are only not citizens because the law says they need to wait. Pretty much everyone here is an immigrant, or descendents of one. Once you start saying it's OK to exclude certain groups, then it's only a matter of time before you end up in the next group slated to be ineligible to posses firearms.

  6. #50
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Respectfully....
    Since 9/11 I don't want people walking around with guns in the U.S.A. unless they have taken this oath.
    Have you taken this oath? If you are American born you don't take any oath; are naturalized citizens therefore more Americans than natural-born Americans? They have to affirm something that people born here don't ever have to confirm - allegiance.

    I've been in this country 30+ of my 34 years. I was born in Bermuda and made an Austrian citizen because it was what my father wanted. I have very little remembrance of ever having lived in Bermuda.

    I'm as American as anyone born in this country - more so than anyone four years younger than me because I've been here longer!

    The only things I can't do are:

    - Vote
    - Buy a gun without more paperwork
    - Become president

    Other than that, I have all of the rights and obligations that the luck of having been born within these borders entails, including selective service registration.

    I still have an Austrian passport because when I was young I thought one day it would be cool to work in Europe for a year or two and easier due to EU citizenship. Now I know I'll never do it and so I have the paperwork on my kitchen counter to become a citizen; but it's hard to document 30 years of trips and I've never finished filling it out. Plus, there's no rush because the ONLY benefit is voting, and that brings confusion. Someday, but who cares?

  7. #51
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarySlinger View Post
    It might be entertaining - albeit off topic - for the "greencarders" here to compare the complete process, end-to-end times, and such, that there processes took. NOT the amount of money involved though :)
    Are you talking about the time/effort to purchase a weapon?

    It was exactly the same as for anyone except:

    - I had to get 3 sequential months of utility bills from two different providers
    - I had to fill in my A number
    - The computer was down when the seller called for the background check, so they called back 3 hours later, by which time I was home and therefore went back the next day to complete the purchase.

    Otherwise, if I'd have had the utility bills sitting around it would have been done in essentially the same amount of time as it takes a citizen.

  8. #52
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceRider View Post
    Are you talking about the time/effort to purchase a weapon?

    It was exactly the same as for anyone except:

    - I had to get 3 sequential months of utility bills from two different providers
    - I had to fill in my A number
    - The computer was down when the seller called for the background check, so they called back 3 hours later, by which time I was home and therefore went back the next day to complete the purchase.

    Otherwise, if I'd have had the utility bills sitting around it would have been done in essentially the same amount of time as it takes a citizen.
    No, the road-to-Greencard processes. Took about three years for me.

  9. #53
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    Got it. Can't shed any light on that process - it was done when I was a kid.

    I hear that the citizenship process is only 6 months or so now, though.

  10. #54
    Member Array everalm's Avatar
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    GC -> Citizen etc

    Just a quick response on this one.

    You have to be a legal resident for 5 years before you can apply to go for naturalized citizen.

    The 6 month thing came out of a Congressional requirement for the IMMENSE backlog the pen pushers had piled up ('cause there is little if any accountability or ownership....) being cleared so that the paperwork processing should not take more than 6'ish months. Of course, like any bureaucracy, they have cheerfully completed this.....

    As a Green Card holder (it's actually a pale beige and harder to forge than a passport now) I am expected, to amongst other things, to register for selective service.........So, I can be called up, fight and die, but can't personally own a firearm...?

    Don't even get me started on voting....

    ***** RANT ON****

    According to the Federal government and the relevent laws a GC holder is not only entitled to vote for those areas that do not affect the national landscape (President/Senate/Congress), you are actively encouraged.
    When you get your GC, you get a nice little pamphlet discussing the rights and obligations of the democratic process and especially "Go Vote".... "....."where not prohibited".

    So, since I live in NJ (definition of a good politician is one who stays bought) damn right I want to vote for my mayor, town council and state reps.......Except the state constitution prohibits me in a teeny tiny little through away line.

    I got all the way to the DA for constitutional affairs who agreed this is not only unfair but discriminatory. There was of course the traditional...."No taxation without representation" speech from me..

    The upshot is, I'm encouraged, allowed, permitted and also barred.

    *************RANT OFF**********

    But I can legally have weapons (although as mentioned earlier you can run into a lottttttttt of hassle) so I shoot as often as possible and periodically vent.

    Sorry ......
    As one of my old sergeants used to say. "WE do not play at spray and play.......Do we.... Sir....."

    Remember children, when we have removed the pin from Mr Grenade, Mr Grenade is no longer our friend......

  11. #55
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    You have to be a legal resident for 5 years before you can apply to go for naturalized citizen.
    In my case three years - having been married to US lady since 2000. 2002, green card finally obtained. Nov 2004 conditional status reviewed - interview of self and wife to check if we still married Changed to unconditional.

    Early 2005 three years was up and began naturalization process (stump up $390!) - $70 just for electronic finger printing (despite set already on record) - then final interview early Sept 2005. Sworn in Sept 28 2005

    Still a long haul - and quite costly.
    Chris - P95
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  12. #56
    Member Array falkon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnesia Wes View Post
    What are you asking? Should we allow immigrants to possess guns?

    Yes, we should allow immigrants to have guns, ccw etc.
    Why?
    Because wiith the exception of Native Americans, we're all immigrants.
    They are immigrants too. Some people forget that.
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    Those who understand binary, and those that don't.

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    A question:

    I'm confused; not sure if you get a green card as a legal resident, or only when you obtain citizenship.

    Isn't "naturalized citizen" a person who has now obtained U.S. citizenship? If so, are you still saying (everalm) that you can't buy a firearm??

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    To those saying that all but "Native Americans" are "immigrants too"...

    I AM a Native American. I was born in America. I am not what you would call an "American Indian," if that's what you're getting at.

    But then again, would you say that a person born in France is not a "Native Frenchman" because despite the fact that he was born there, his ancestors did not occupy that land since the dawn of mankind, so really they stole it from its TRUE natives, meaning that he's actually an immigrant like everyone else living in France?

  15. #59
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceRider View Post
    Got it. Can't shed any light on that process - it was done when I was a kid.

    I hear that the citizenship process is only 6 months or so now, though.
    Aye; the theory being that we've already been through the wringer for background checks, medical, etc.

  16. #60
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    In my case three years - having been married to US lady since 2000.

    Still a long haul - and quite costly.
    Citizenship... Alimony... Citizenship... Alimony...



    Nah. I'll wait the five years

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