Would you intervene in a shooting attack where shooter has bulletproof vest?

This is a discussion on Would you intervene in a shooting attack where shooter has bulletproof vest? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; How exactly is one supposed to know the bad guy is wearing a bullet proof vest before you engage him? What if I left my ...

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Thread: Would you intervene in a shooting attack where shooter has bulletproof vest?

  1. #61
    Member Array F350_6's Avatar
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    How exactly is one supposed to know the bad guy is wearing a bullet proof vest before you engage him? What if I left my x-ray vision goggles at home that day? If I feel I need to engage, my first shot will be center mass. A vest or drugs may mean that shot has little or no effect. I won't know until I get there, but the first shot will be center mass.

    I do have my doubts about the gear he was wearing. The initial reports of the Denver movie theater shooting reported a "bullet proof vest" as well. The article I read about the Oregon shooting that mentioned the bullet proof vest was also kind enough to point out that the AR-15 rifle that was reportedly used was a civilian version of the M-16 fully automatic rifle used by the military.

    I can only assume the reporter is a little long in the tooth since the M-16 hasn't been fully auto since Vietnam.
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  3. #62
    Member Array Billb1960's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    Even if I wasn't a LEO, I couldn't stand by and do nothing if I had the potential to save lives. But that's me.
    I understand the sentiment but how would you feel if one of your rounds missed the bad guy and struck an innocent? The Clackamas Mall is huge and had thousands of people in it. How the shooter only managed to hit 4 people including himself is almost a miracle although the number of shots fired has 'magically' dropped from 60 to 20 in the last day.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    By the same token,how would you feel if you had the means to stop the attack and did nothing?I would feel worse if I didn't try.
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    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350_6 View Post
    How exactly is one supposed to know the bad guy is wearing a bullet proof vest before you engage him? What if I left my x-ray vision goggles at home that day? If I feel I need to engage, my first shot will be center mass. A vest or drugs may mean that shot has little or no effect. I won't know until I get there, but the first shot will be center mass.

    I do have my doubts about the gear he was wearing. The initial reports of the Denver movie theater shooting reported a "bullet proof vest" as well. The article I read about the Oregon shooting that mentioned the bullet proof vest was also kind enough to point out that the AR-15 rifle that was reportedly used was a civilian version of the M-16 fully automatic rifle used by the military.

    I can only assume the reporter is a little long in the tooth since the M-16 hasn't been fully auto since Vietnam.
    If he was wearing a black T-shirt with the sleeves cut off of it, the media would report it as wearing a tactical bullet proof assault vest.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    Even if I wasn't a LEO, I couldn't stand by and do nothing if I had the potential to save lives. But that's me.
    ^^^^^THIS^^^^^
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    A wealth of great advice/input has already been offered, so I'll be brief. First off there is no such thing as a "bullet proof vest". I know you've been told this repeatedly but i'll say it again. You show me any threat level body armor, and i'll show you a round that will penetrate it. Bullet proof vests and bullet proof glass are fantasy. Bullet resistant yes. We lose heroes wearing the badge every day in this country, that were wearing body armor. I've worn it, I've witnessed it be defeated. Our troops, and most specifically our Special Operations Command warriors wear the best money can buy, and we're losing more of those american heroes all the damn time on the battlefields over in the sandbox. My other "issue" is the use of the term "Assault Rifle". I guess technically you are correct, because the BG was using a rifle to assault people in a crowded mall, but I hate the term. It's a gun grabbers label that I won't accept.

    And to answer your question, I'll put it to you like this: I could never, in good conscience leave the scene of a fight, knowing that I was armed, trained, and capable of saving lives, even if the cost was my own life. I've made that commitment over 30 years ago, and don't see that changing anytime soon. I recognize the dangers; physical, legal, & financial and I'm all in.

    There is a real concern that's only been touched on here, and that's the very real possibility of being mistaken for a BG yourself, so you best do everything possible to avoid that fatal first impression. I'm a retired LEO, with a badge and credentials, and training to avoid this problem, or at least minimize it, but there are blue on blue shooting all the time, and it should be part of your tactical plan. Holstering/concealing your weapon until you have to engage and after is GREAT advice. After you've engaged, holstering/concealing and raising your arms for the sky is another good tactic, with your hands open and fingers spread. Present NO threat to the responding officers. Someone mentioned the evolution of police response to active shooters already. Every agency has a different policy, and it's still being fine tuned across the country, but I know for dead certain that there are some officers that will engage, immediately, without a plan or backup, because it's a force stronger than gravity, to get in there and stop the bloodshed of innocents.

    Everyone has to make this decision for themselves, and nobody that hasn't been shot at before will know how they will react until the STTS. If you're a casual CCW, without any tactical training, and regular training, on something other than paper, you will probably be best off to get out, and get to safety as soon as possible. If you possess a warriors spirit, you'll go to cover, engage, move, engage, and advance on your target. Extreme violence carries the day. You can't bet on it, but most likely that BG was counting on no resistance until the uniforms arrived. Surprise is in your favor. Use it wisely. Be safe.

    And I started this off by saying I'd be brief. Whoops. :)

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array acepilot's Avatar
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  9. #68
    Member Array Billb1960's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    By the same token,how would you feel if you had the means to stop the attack and did nothing?I would feel worse if I didn't try.
    As has been stated this is a very much YHTBT type situation. If I'm in the food court when the shooter shows up I'm getting off the X, going for cover and evaluating the situation from there including the possibility of engaging the shooter. If I'm downstairs a floor away I doubt very much I'd be running towards the shooter.

    Also bear in mind that the owners of the mall in their infinite wisdom have made it a Criminal Protection Zone aka a Gun Free Zone and it's so posted so if anything bad happens that resulted from your actions it happened while you were committing a crime.

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    As Ken Hammond showed, one individual can make a difference in active shooter situation.
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    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billb1960 View Post
    As has been stated this is a very much YHTBT type situation. If I'm in the food court when the shooter shows up I'm getting off the X, going for cover and evaluating the situation from there including the possibility of engaging the shooter. If I'm downstairs a floor away I doubt very much I'd be running towards the shooter.

    Also bear in mind that the owners of the mall in their infinite wisdom have made it a Criminal Protection Zone aka a Gun Free Zone and it's so posted so if anything bad happens that resulted from your actions it happened while you were committing a crime.
    only if those signs carry weight of law in your state
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  12. #71
    Member Array Billb1960's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    As Ken Hammond showed, one individual can make a difference in active shooter situation.
    Ken Hammond is a trained LEO. Even off duty LEOs should respond to that situation. That's why most departments have OD carry policies.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Yes, he was, but my point is that a single person can stop an active shooter.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  14. #73
    Member Array Billb1960's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    only if those signs carry weight of law in your state
    Regardless you think a good lawyer couldn't make a case?

    So a bullet from your gun is determined to be the cause of death for a 7 year old boy that you didn't see behind the shooter. Do you think when his family files the civil suit and their lawyer has you on the stand he won't ask you if you saw the big Gun Free Zone signs posted prominently at every entrance to the mall? And when you respond that as far as you know they don't carry they weight of law that he'll just give up and move on? Nope, he'll grill you on why you would bring a gun to a place which was clearly marked Gun Free Zone, then he'll find out how often you've trained, what kind of a shot you are, how's your eyesight, how many times you've been shot at, what internet forums you participate in etc. All the stuff you never see in the movies.

  15. #74
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrow75 View Post
    I was wondering when someone would get around to making this about Obama.
    What's the matter?--- can't handle the truth? I surely hope you are just stating a fact of this thread and replies that you were surprised had not appeared yet. If you mean it the other way--go suck on a lemon.

  16. #75
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Would you intervene in a shooting attack where shooter has bulletproof vest?

    YES
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