If you we're there at a mass shooting

This is a discussion on If you we're there at a mass shooting within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS Having a permit and carrying a gun does not make you a freelance police officer, more to the point if you ...

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  1. #31
    New Member Array Kibaro65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    Having a permit and carrying a gun does not make you a freelance police officer, more to the point if you try now you become the criminal. Not only are you not needed to respond to an active shooter situation that does not directly involve you at the moment it is happening. (ie you are at the other end of the mall) if you progress to the situation and engage, you have now crossed the line to being a criminal. For instance, you our outside that school today, hear shooting and kids running and screaming, bust through the door and see a man holding a gun, do you shoot him? If you said yes, you just killed an innocent man, he was a teacher that just happened to break the rules and carry a gun to work who was looking for the real shooter. You as a civilian are not required or allowed to make these decisions, that is for people with “training”. Doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong for the discussion, it’s the fact that you, by law, are not capable of making that decision. You may or may not be in real life, it’s not an insult, I’m just telling you what the law says. If you have a permit, and as the law is the same in all states with a carry permit that you are not a freelance police officer and that there are no “Good Samaritan” laws that cover the use of a firearm, you should know that you are only allowed to use deadly force when you or people that you have a personal relationship with (parent, spouse, child, employer or employees in OK) are in an immediate threat or danger….Mac
    YOu maybe correct ,but with God's help I hope I will have the strength to try to save the life of at least one of those kid's lives and if I did I would gladly face my consequences later.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kibaro65 View Post
    YOu maybe correct ,but with God's help I hope I will have the strength to try to save the life of at least one of those kid's lives and if I did I would gladly face my consequences later.
    What the law says and what a warrior will do in that situation are two COMPLETELY different things. That post was about the law, not personal opinion.
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

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    Sir, I take no exception to being challenged on any comments I make, however if you are going to tell me that I do not know what I am talking about, I would ask that you back that statement up with some facts. As I believe that any law enforcement officer would agree with the statement that started this conversation, I encourage anyone to find me either a statute or case law that points in another direction. Please don’t come at me with “my best friend’s dog’s third cousin said” as I’m not interested. I dispel myths about CCW all the time, in class and on the street. As gun laws from state to state are basically the same, I would love to see laws that are that much different so as I may study them and become further educated on the subject. So please, if you have them share. But telling me “I'm not sure where you got your law degree, but you should demand a refund.” And then not telling me where you got yours does not cover it in my world. Especially when you have nothing to back up the comment other than trying to look cute and like a smarta**. And I’ll leave you with this, unless you care to discusses this more, I would rather take my advice from a person with 15 years in law enforcement and 10 years as a ccw instructor as opposed from retired farmer. So if you have some facts, share them, but please don’t take a shot at me and expect me not to respond, I’m a type A personality.
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

  5. #34
    RT
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    Having a permit and carrying a gun does not make you a freelance police officer, more to the point if you try now you become the criminal. Not only are you not needed to respond to an active shooter situation that does not directly involve you at the moment it is happening. (ie you are at the other end of the mall) if you progress to the situation and engage, you have now crossed the line to being a criminal. For instance, you our outside that school today, hear shooting and kids running and screaming, bust through the door and see a man holding a gun, do you shoot him? If you said yes, you just killed an innocent man, he was a teacher that just happened to break the rules and carry a gun to work who was looking for the real shooter. You as a civilian are not required or allowed to make these decisions, that is for people with “training”. Doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong for the discussion, it’s the fact that you, by law, are not capable of making that decision. You may or may not be in real life, it’s not an insult, I’m just telling you what the law says. If you have a permit, and as the law is the same in all states with a carry permit that you are not a freelance police officer and that there are no “Good Samaritan” laws that cover the use of a firearm, you should know that you are only allowed to use deadly force when you or people that you have a personal relationship with (parent, spouse, child, employer or employees in OK) are in an immediate threat or danger….Mac
    What about Vic Stacey from Texas rendering unsolicited aid to a LEO involved in a shootout by engaging the shooter? Is he a criminal? I don't believe he had a personal relationship with the LEO. Or would that be excuseable since he was helping out a LEO and not the unwashed masses? I think you need to do a bit of fact checking. The law is not the same in all states. Many states have legislation justifying lethal force in the prevention of a forcible felony where another person is the victim, with no provision requiring a personal relationship between the two. Also, whether you intended to or not, your posts reek of an elitist LEO mentality.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    What the law says and what a warrior will do in that situation are two COMPLETELY different things. That post was about the law, not personal opinion.
    I appreciate your reply and you are right emotions would play a part in any decision making. I hope I could make the right decisions if a situation came along,but I understand being a LEO for 10 years your views are law driven but if a situation came along I'm sure your "warrior" mentality would kick in espiecially when kids are involved.Thanks for everything you've done during your service......

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT View Post
    What about Vic Stacey from Texas rendering unsolicited aid to a LEO involved in a shootout by engaging the shooter? Is he a criminal? I don't believe he had a personal relationship with the LEO. Or would that be excuseable since he was helping out a LEO and not the unwashed masses? I think you need to do a bit of fact checking. The law is not the same in all states. Many states have legislation justifying lethal force in the prevention of a forcible felony where another person is the victim, with no provision requiring a personal relationship between the two. Also, whether you intended to or not, your posts reek of an elitist LEO mentality.
    Which states are those please. And there is a provision in Oklahoma law for helping law enforcement. And is stating the law makes me reek of LEO that is fine, doesn’t change the law.
    Last edited by DoubleTapSS; December 14th, 2012 at 08:59 PM. Reason: added last sentence.
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

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    http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/loca...9bb2963f4.html

    Even Stacy concedes that his actions prevented an even greater tragedy.
    “I thought if I didn’t help this officer, he would have gotten the rest of us,” Stacy said.

    Changes the dynamics back to SELF defense. He was in fear for his life and that of his loved ones.
    Last edited by DoubleTapSS; December 14th, 2012 at 09:08 PM. Reason: added link to story
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    What the law says and what a warrior will do in that situation are two COMPLETELY different things. That post was about the law, not personal opinion.
    Perhaps you should read over the law of your own state again, since you're responsible for enforcing it.... namely 21-733 which I have quoted below.

    §21 733. Justifiable homicide by any person.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in either of the following cases:
    1. When resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to commit any felony upon him, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is; or,
    2. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, when there is a reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or,
    3. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed; or in lawfully suppressing any riot; or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.
    The second point is in agreement with your assertion that one must have a personal relationship with the person he/she is trying to protect via lethal means, but number 3 opens the door for anyone to intervene regardless of whether they know the victim or not. A person responsible for a mass shooting has definitely committed a felony, so if someone were forced to subdue the shooter with deadly force while in the process of trying to effect a "citizen's arrest", they would be justified in doing so the way the law is written. Also, I would think that engaging an active shooter and preventing (further) casualties would be considered an act of "keeping and preserving the peace".

  10. #39
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    In Kentucky its legal to use deadly force to protect a third person that is not a family member: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503-00/070.PDF
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    Which states are those please. And there is a provision in Oklahoma law for helping law enforcement. And is stating the law makes me reek of LEO that is fine, doesn’t change the law.
    Well, your own state for one. Indiana is another. There are more, but I don't have time right now to look up and verify exactly what states do. Also, I didn't say you reeked of LEO. I said your posts reek of an ELITIST LEO mentality.

    You're right, merely stating the law doesn't change it. Getting the law wrong certainly does change it though. If someone were actually charged in Oklahoma after engaging an active shooter and saving innocent lives, the defense would have one heck of a case under the third section of 21-733 with regard to dismissing the charges.

    Even Stacy concedes that his actions prevented an even greater tragedy.
    “I thought if I didn’t help this officer, he would have gotten the rest of us,” Stacy said.

    Changes the dynamics back to SELF defense. He was in fear for his life and that of his loved ones.
    Was he in immediate danger of being killed himself? IIRC, he was a decent distance away from the shooting, in his home, when it broke out. He could have just laid low, but he decided to intervene. It wasn't so much self defense as it was him rendering aid to another in need.
    Last edited by RT; December 14th, 2012 at 09:56 PM. Reason: added quote from post I hadn't seen

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Aaaaaaa the old going to jail because of some legal mumbojumbo or having to live the rest of my life saying to myself I could have done something yet I did nothing argument.

    Folks can we all agree that morals and ethics are subjective and what might be moral and ethical for one may not be for the other?

    Also guys, we are all like minded people lets not attack are own.
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  13. #42
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    I live in Oklahoma and have an SDA license. I don't know exactly what I would do in that situation. I would like to think, if possible, I would try to stop a bad guy that was doing violence, especially to children. I would deal with what happend to me in the courts afterward. I'm no attorney or LEO, but the way I read the Oklahoma SDA law I believe I would have a defense or at least some mitigating factors on my side.

    OKLAHOMA SELF DEFENSE ACT

    TITLE 21 § 1289.25 PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
    A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.

    B. A person or a owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

    1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
    2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has
    no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another" or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

    F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    Last edited by Okie765; December 15th, 2012 at 03:49 PM.

  14. #43
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    Since the last three mass shootings have all involved a .223 rifle, any carrying citizen with a handgun trying to stop the killer would probably be dead. I can't imagine just standing by and doing nothing though...

  15. #44
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    I fancy myself somewhat of a brave person, I would like to think that given the opportunity to defend myself as well as an innocent child( in the case of the school shooting) or any other helpless person that I could overcome my own fear and do what needs to be done

  16. #45
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    Well for starters, according the the NY Post, if I count right before today there have been 14 events with 163 mass deaths in the USA since 1966. (Now 190 - and 10 events with 173 dead that occurred in foreign countries with extreme gun control.)

    My own research showed at around 2,450 people have died from being struck by lightening in the same 45 years. So to start with you have about 14 times more chance of being killed by lightening than being in an active shooter situation at a school or mall.

    That said, I would take my chances with any ignorant laws if I could keep 20 children from being slaughtered. Find me a jury that would convict anyone who intervened and saved even one life in a situation like that.

    As for begin armed and just being in the vicinity, if you were checked, your gun would not have been fired, you have a permit, nobody would be able to connect you to the shooter (let's hope it's not your next door neighbor) and you'd be let go after some inconvenience.

    Reference article.
    History of mass shootings — Newtown school massacre among world's deadliest - NYPOST.com
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