If you we're there at a mass shooting

This is a discussion on If you we're there at a mass shooting within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If you have a permit, and as the law is the same in all states with a carry permit that you are not a freelance ...

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Thread: If you we're there at a mass shooting

  1. #46
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    If you have a permit, and as the law is the same in all states with a carry permit that you are not a freelance police officer and that there are no “Good Samaritan” laws that cover the use of a firearm, you should know that you are only allowed to use deadly force when you or people that you have a personal relationship with (parent, spouse, child, employer or employees in OK) are in an immediate threat or danger….Mac
    DoubleTapSS. I am afraid you are woefully misinformed. I have seen very few if any gun laws that are the same in every state up to and including SD laws. Here is the Arkansas Statute.


    Section 5-2-606 of the Arkansas Code provides:
    A person is justified in using physical force upon another person to defend himself or herself or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and the person may use a degree of force that he or she reasonably believes to be necessary.


    There is nothing in the statute that states that I have to have a personal relationship to defend a 3rd party nor do many other states. You may need to research more or stick to OK statutes before making a post and to end it before it starts. I am a former long time LEO, CC holder from my home state and have worked for the DoS and DoD as a contractor for a long time. A large part of my job is training others in host nation and international law however I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    Gunslingergirl thank you for posting that I am going to use it.
    BurgerBoy and limatunes like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Interesting, that that article doesn't list the 2004 Beslan massacre, in which more than 330 hostages were killed.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    Having a permit and carrying a gun does not make you a freelance police officer, more to the point if you try now you become the criminal. Not only are you not needed to respond to an active shooter situation that does not directly involve you at the moment it is happening. (ie you are at the other end of the mall) if you progress to the situation and engage, you have now crossed the line to being a criminal. For instance, you our outside that school today, hear shooting and kids running and screaming, bust through the door and see a man holding a gun, do you shoot him? If you said yes, you just killed an innocent man, he was a teacher that just happened to break the rules and carry a gun to work who was looking for the real shooter. You as a civilian are not required or allowed to make these decisions, that is for people with “training”. Doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong for the discussion, it’s the fact that you, by law, are not capable of making that decision. You may or may not be in real life, it’s not an insult, I’m just telling you what the law says. If you have a permit, and as the law is the same in all states with a carry permit that you are not a freelance police officer and that there are no “Good Samaritan” laws that cover the use of a firearm, you should know that you are only allowed to use deadly force when you or people that you have a personal relationship with (parent, spouse, child, employer or employees in OK) are in an immediate threat or danger….Mac
    Sir - your pontificating in this thread notwithstanding, you are seriously misinformed. The following is from the Ohio AG's handbook for concealed carriers - 2011 edition. Which may be found at this link. http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/F...ws-Manual.aspx.

    Defense of Others
    A person may defend another only if the protected person would have had the right to use deadly force in self-defense himself. Under Ohio law, a person may defend family members, friends, or strangers. However, just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any more force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm threatened.

    A defendant who claims he used deadly force to protect another has to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that the person he protected was in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death and that deadly force was the only way to protect the person from that danger. Furthermore, the defendant also must show that the protected person was not at fault for creating the situation and did not have a duty to leave or avoid the situation.

    Just curious - does Double Tap Shooting School teach (or attempt to teach) the legal aspects of concealed carry?
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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  5. #49
    Member Array wiguy's Avatar
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    No I can't get down in the weeds with minutia. Here are 2 courses of action I have given thought to, some training along the way. If you are armed in CLOSE proximity, pull & shoot. No talking, no directing, an 'active shooter' is not to be reasoned with, or attempted to.


    If you are unarmed & in close proximity, rush the shooter like the crazed linebacker you were back in the day.

    Those are the 2 courses of action, some will be better equipped to execute than others. It's good to have a plan of some sort.

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by atcs2152 View Post
    With two mass shootings this week, I have to wonder what could happen if, as a legal CCW, you happen to be there. Not the less likely scenario where you actually have a chance to take out the bad guy, but rather the more likely scenario where you're some what further away but in the same building and you get herded to a back room and are later escorted out by the police. With emotions running high, what if during that evacuation it's discovered that you're carrying? I can picture all sorts of negative outcomes and it makes me wonder if CCW has more risks than benefits.
    If I were at either of this weeks shootings, I would have been, in compliance with the law, disarmed and unable to carry out effective resistance to the shooter's actions. At the mall, I would have fled or hidden. At the school with little kiddos, I would like to think that, as an expendable old fart, I would have found an improvised weapon (fire extinguisher comes to mind) and attempted to disarm/stop the assault - knowing full well that this will probably be a self-sacrificial act.

    I hope never to have to find out if I would actually act in this manner, but I believe I would. This is something I have thought of many times as I weekly go to a statutory victim preserve. I have thought of several ways we could be attacked and the best tactical response to each from where I am likely to be.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    Having a permit and carrying a gun does not make you a freelance police officer, more to the point if you try now you become the criminal.
    Not only are you not needed to respond to an active shooter situation that does not directly involve you at the moment it is happening. (ie you are at the other end of the mall) if you progress to the situation and engage, you have now crossed the line to being a criminal.
    Plenty of states recognize the right of a person to assist others, even to the point of using force (or even deadly force) as needed to justifiably stop criminal violence.

    In Oregon, for example:


    ORS 161.209 Use of physical force in defense of a person. Except as provided in ORS 161.215 and 161.219, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. [1971 c.743 §22]


    At least in states that don't statutorily demand retreat in the face of such things, a citizen has a right to stop such things, even if the harm is technically "only" occurring to others, or technically "across the mall." Stopping such a thing hardly makes one a claimant to a police officer's badge or responsibilities. Though, it surely does entail the full load of responsibilities that such action brings.

    For instance, you our outside that school today, hear shooting and kids running and screaming, bust through the door and see a man holding a gun, do you shoot him? If you said yes, you just killed an innocent man, he was a teacher that just happened to break the rules and carry a gun to work who was looking for the real shooter. You as a civilian are not required or allowed to make these decisions, that is for people with “training”.
    In most states, it's fully recognized that citizenship is a position of some responsibility, and that citizens are indeed fully empowered to lawfully make such decisions about the veracity of a situation and whether stepping up to put a halt to criminal violence is warranted. Of course, as you point out, anytime we commit to any action it's incumbent on us to not do so blindly such that we harm innocents in the process. In most all states, it comes down to the "reasonable man" standard, basically. If a reasonable person would conclude the situation was criminal, did justify taking action to stop it, could be done so without undue harm to innocents ...

    Beyond any specific statutes on use-of-force in defense of a person, there are also the "competing harms" and "choice of evils" statutes in many states. As well, there is case law.

    Read up. Depending on your state, it can be subtle and a tangle of legalese. If still confused, I'd strongly recommend spending an hour or so speaking with a competent attorney in your state who is well-versed in the use-of-force and self-defense type realities in your state.
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    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    I just happen to have the latest and greatest law book and course from our state, as we just implemented open carry and it has been updated, if you like I’ll give you my phone number and read you the material verbatim.
    Better still, why don't you just post it here for us all to read?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Really? I started taking heat after my first post, and you made it all the way to 22.
    Me too.
    "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." ~ P. J. O'Rourke

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBSR View Post
    I don't think you question is overly provocative, but rather just a question from someone who's perhaps not had a lot of contact with law enforcement while carrying. We all start somewhere my friend, and it's OK.

    I'd not wait for the cops to discover I was armed, but rather I'd bring it up, so they knew as soon as practical. Just like when you're stopped while driving a vehicle. Keep your hands away from the weapon, while you're discussing it, and all will work out well. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd rather NOT be armed. Just my .02. Be safe.
    In Michigan you have a legal duty to inform a LEO, investigating a situation of which you are a party, that you are carrying. Failure to do so will result in permit revocation, possibly forever. If police arrive at a scene, violent or not, I inform. If a LEO were to approach and start a conversation, I would inform discretely. Better safe than sorry on this count.
    "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." ~ P. J. O'Rourke

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    <----- Is pounding his chest. *THUMP*THUMP*THUMP

    I would have drawn my Glock and placed two center mass and one in the head while protecting the children from the evil gunman. It would have only taken three bullets. I would not have missed and it would have all gone perfectly as it did in my head. Then I would take the hot history teacher out for coffee and a long weekend. *THUMP*THUMP*THUMP

    Sorry but these chest thumping threads are silly.
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  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Interesting, that that article doesn't list the 2004 Beslan massacre, in which more than 330 hostages were killed.
    That was an act of terrorism not an act of lunacy.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    That was an act of terrorism not an act of lunacy.
    Sure. But the point is, Beslan was an attack on a vulnerable, otherwise accessible and guns-free type environment, not so dissimilar from the recent attacks at schools. Doesn't much matter what they were seeking, or who did it.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; December 15th, 2012 at 02:34 PM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    That was an act of terrorism not an act of lunacy.
    Interesting distinction...
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  15. #59
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    Are you serious about a CCW having more risks than benefits? So what if it is discovered after evacuation that one has a Concealed Legal Carry. If the Authorities question you than act accordingly.
    It's thinking like that in which the Anti-Gunners are trying to achieve in law abiding citizens and those that do not know the first thing about Concealed Carry.

    This is how the Liberal Media plays into the minds of the masses. They work on our Emotions and if you can work on someones Emotions than you have the Cat in the Bag. Now thats all we will see and here is this Tragic event that took those poor little Souls Lives. It will be played over and over and change the minds of many about THE RIGHT to BEAR ARMS. Mark my words, this is how the Anti-Gunners do it.

    It's our GOD GIVEN RIGHT to PROTECT ourselves and we better never ever forget how much blood was spilled out on our land and Foreign Lands for our FREEDOMS.

    P.S. In no way do I take lightly what took place in Connecticut and around the world those individuals that have lost their lives to senseless acts of violence. I am only stating a fact about how the Anti-Gunners are trying to achieve their goals.

    Control your emotions and look at EVERYTHING, OBJECTIVELY

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    What the law says and what a warrior will do in that situation are two COMPLETELY different things. That post was about the law, not personal opinion.
    Well, I don't claim to be any kind of omnipotent law guru; but in every state I have lived in the law grants the same right of defense of 3rd party as defense of self; so unless Oklahoma is a real chicken shat state I do not see where going to the aid and defense of 3rd parties makes anyone a criminal.
    KBSR likes this.

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