If you we're there at a mass shooting - Page 5

If you we're there at a mass shooting

This is a discussion on If you we're there at a mass shooting within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by F350 Well, I don't claim to be any kind of omnipotent law guru; but in every state I have lived in the ...

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  1. #61
    Member Array Okie765's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Well, I don't claim to be any kind of omnipotent law guru; but in every state I have lived in the law grants the same right of defense of 3rd party as defense of self; so unless Oklahoma is a real chicken shat state I do not see where going to the aid and defense of 3rd parties makes anyone a criminal.
    I live in Oklahoma and have an Oklahoma SDA (CC) license. On page #3 of this thread I posted part of the Oklahoma Self Defense Act that pertains to what we are discussing . We DO have the right to use deadly force to prevent a a criminal forcible assault against a 3rd party. Believe me, Oklahoma is probably the most conservative state in the USA. Certainly more conservative than Colorado. There is nothing that is "chicken shat" about our state and I would take issue with anyone making that statment. It seemed to me that DoubleTapSS was trying to go with the " Look at me, I'm a LEO and I'm the only one that's qualified to defend a 3rd party. " approach.


  2. #62
    Member Array DoubleTapSS's Avatar
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    Okie765, I suggest you call you SDA instructor and ask him that question again. I’ll post a quick article regarding Oklahoma and get in depth tonight when I get home from work. Yes I’ll post the new OK law book then. I’ll concede there are other states that have “better” 3rd party laws (we DON’T) that I was un-aware of until this thread. However I am NOT wrong about what the law is in Oklahoma. Here is one article in the first 3 google responses.

    When can you Use Deadly Force?
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

  3. #63
    Member Array DoubleTapSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Just curious - does Double Tap Shooting School teach (or attempt to teach) the legal aspects of concealed carry?
    Yep, and I teach the material EXACTLY as the state of Oklahoma gives it to me. I may in fact be wrong about other states, got NO problem admitting when I am wrong. But I’m not wrong about the law in Oklahoma. Ummm that’s where I live and teach, and the law I’m most familiar with. Maybe I should have done more research about other states and I should have started that response off with “here in Oklahoma”. So yeah, I teach here in Oklahoma and I teach their material EXACTLY as it is given to me, I do not ad lib, add or take away from it.
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

  4. #64
    Member Array DoubleTapSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie765 View Post
    I live in Oklahoma and have an Oklahoma SDA (CC) license. On page #3 of this thread I posted part of the Oklahoma Self Defense Act that pertains to what we are discussing . [/i]approach.
    That is defense of a dwelling, "dwelling" is defined as a "building which regularly or intermittently is occupied by a person lodging therein at night, whether or not a person is actually present." United States v. Adams, 2009 U.S. App. LEXIS 25866 (9th Cir. Or. Nov. 25, 2009) And part of the “stand your ground law”, read the entire section, not just part of it.
    Last edited by DoubleTapSS; December 18th, 2012 at 07:56 AM. Reason: Typo
    “Qui Desiderat Pacem Praeparet Bellum” – “Pray For Peace, Prepare For War”

  5. #65
    Member Array Okie765's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTapSS View Post
    That is defense of a dwelling, "dwelling" is defined as a "building which regularly or intermittently is occupied by a person lodging therein at night, whether or not a person is actually present." United States v. Adams, 2009 U.S. App. LEXIS 25866 (9th Cir. Or. Nov. 25, 2009) And part of the “stand your ground law”, read the entire section, not just part of it.

    DoubleTapSS,

    Sorry, but I think you are mistaken on your interpretation of the Oklahoma SDA law. I posted the Oklahoma SDA law again below. You're correct that this section is titled PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST "INTRUDER" but you are wrong when you say [in your quote above] that the term "INTRUDER" only applies to a person entering "a dwelling".

    As you can see [below], the law mentions "places of buisness" a number of times. Everyone knows that places of buisness are NOT dwellings and that most of them are not for the lodging of people at night like you mentioned. Certainly not an elementary school.

    The maniac, like the one that entered the Sandy Hook school armed & by force WAS an INTRUDER that was entering a "place of buisness" unlawfully with the intent to commit a forcible felony. That school was not a dwelling in the contex that you described above.

    Part "B" below includes: " A person or a owner, manager or employee of a business.", as people that can use deadly force against the unlawful intruder. A "person" could be considered as a 3rd party individual on the property not nessessarily employed by that buisness.
    Also Part "D." of the law is excusive of ANY dwelling OR place of buisness and the last line of part "D" does state "to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to PREVENT the commission of a FORCIBLE FELONY."

    Having said all of that. IF possible, I would like to think that I would have tried to stop a bad guy from killing innocent children by what ever means I had at the time. I wouldn't have to be a LEO or Instuctor to do that. The law and the courts would just have to deal with me afterwards.

    ================================================== ========================================

    OKLAHOMA SDA LAW

    TITLE 21 § 1289.25 PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
    A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes or places of business.

    B. "A person or a owner, manager or employee of a business is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

    1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or a place of business, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business; and
    2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person,
    or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

    F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    Last edited by Okie765; December 18th, 2012 at 10:22 PM.

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