This is what is being allowed to happen (CONN Shooting)

This is a discussion on This is what is being allowed to happen (CONN Shooting) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So our only course of action to shut up the nay sayers is to essentially make each school a fire base... why stop there, we ...

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  1. #31
    Ex Member Array SayVandelay's Avatar
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    So our only course of action to shut up the nay sayers is to essentially make each school a fire base... why stop there, we can use guard towers with spot lights and 20 ft tall fences lined with razor wire, ooo we can even electrify it.... I feel thats what the conversation would boil down to... Cost effectiveness and plausible are better than a show of force.
    Calm down. It's not a show of force. It's a visible, known presence(literally one or two and someone watching cameras, get a hold of yourself). Rather than an idea that a few teachers, probably untrained in defensive shooting, will have a weapon. And assuming there are enough armed teachers to deal with it, your idea of "strategically" placed teachers is around kids. Where do kids come into this strategy? And again Im saying let teachers carry if they want to, but with one locked door and an armed guard your kids may never even have to know anything happened. And again if the other side of the discussion is gun control and bans, which of our ideas sounds more palatable to anti gun activists and voters? Tactical earth science teachers or trained guards, a locked door, and a few cameras. We arent talking about maximum security...A couple professionals and the right for a teacher to keep a gun in her purse if he or she wants one

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  3. #32
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    Not to diverge too much from the subject but as coincidence would have it yesterday my son's class in the Milwaukee Police Academy had an active shooter scenario at an empty school. Prior to the actual drills the instructors told them about the Sandy Creek school shootings. That made their training mean a lot more to them. The drill was televised on a local TV station, my son in the lead (he's a squad leader). Of course they had protective face covering on because they were using simunitions & you couldn't actually see their faces. He put 3 rounds in the face of the "shooter".

    I firmly believe that had an armed teacher/janitor/security officer/whatever been present this might not have been as bad as it turned out. I doubt if this will ever happen because "the bureaucracy wouldn't want to introduce guns in the school. It would scare the children". There's probably a dozen more anti-gun excuses that could be used. Probably more.

    In my state, Wisconsin, it's a felony to be armed in a school or the grounds of a school or a private church school, unless the armed individual is a police officer or a certified armed security officer on duty. Our pastors, teachers & church council asked the state in a formal letter whether an exception could be made for at least church service when school was not in session. The response for the state was a categorical "no". All of us in the congregation (many) with CCLs feel very uneasy about this. Friday's school shooting will make us feel uneasier. I know I do. I still have a grandson in school & we're in church every Sunday. It seems when it's least expected you're elected to be the next group of victims.
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CookieEOD View Post
    I had to know what the general populous whom are law bidding citizens feel will happen as a result of our political rule?
    A heavy push by anti-gunners for stricter gun control measures is absolutely going to occur.

    More to the point, am I the only one who feels that if even one staff member had been allowed to carry concealed. Could you imagine how quickly all of these shootings would have ended if the assailant knew anyone could have been armed? If a principle or assistant principle had the legal right to be armed how many more of these student shootings do you all feel would happen successfully?
    Whether in a given instance having one or two armed folks inside the building would have mitigated the situation can't be said. But it's a fact that having zero armed people anywhere near an active shooter does nothing to stop the violence. Nor does having an easily-penetrated facility.

    The solution has got to be some combination of hardening the facility and its procedures combined with arming faculty/administrators (or having other specific armed staff on-site). IMO, until the spaces with kids are nearly impossible for the average person to get into without formal access being granted, and until the rooms of students are blocked from unrestricted access once inside the building, frankly I don't see any number of armed personnel being able to stop a slaughter of many.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CookieEOD View Post
    It doesnt even have to take that much. one way in one way out school entrances (not including alarmed emergency exits). My school when I was younger had this in practice, coupled with having to be a parent/ guardian of a student to visit unless a previous appointment with staff was made. That should be a standard for all schools. an School administrator/ secretary can have an office in the front to control entrance, and I guarantee if said person was armed thats all the deterrence one would need. paying for outside personnel is just a waste of money.
    Supposedly they had a "good" security system and protocol in place. The man was not suppose to be able to just walk in. They are still figuring out how he got in and if there was a screw up in security.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Supposedly they had a "good" security system and protocol in place. The man was not suppose to be able to just walk in. They are still figuring out how he got in and if there was a screw up in security.
    Their security was a doorbell. He broke the window, from what I heard

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    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CookieEOD View Post
    I have stated else where but how is it that Airline Pilots were able to have a psych profile done to carry concealed on flights after 911 but it is too much to ask that we be allowed to do the same with school faculty. The staff are just as honor bound to protect students as any sworn security that the tax payer would have to pay for. I feel it just makes sense.
    Honor bound? What are you talking about?

    Sorry but I don't think it is the teachers job anymore than the janitors job to protect the students from an armed gunman. The security guards and police at schools are but the teachers, janitors, administrators, nurses, and lunch ladies are not honor bound to risk their lives for little Jimmy and Suzy. It is not their job to defend the kids from armed gunmen or terrorists or anything like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by norb5150 View Post
    That would be a great day. unfortunately even if that was the case, you can bet that it would not be all over the televisions as this incident was/is. I never would have imagined what happed very shortly after the first reports of this tragic event started comming through. Gun laws were immediately spoken of. The brands models and manufactures of the firearms used were immediately posted all over the tv's. Gun owners get the finger pointed at them more often that not in times like this yet it is the gun owners who protect this entire countries freedoms. Antis will never see it that way. In clossing my thoughts and prayers to the families who are dealing with this unspeakable act of cowardism
    Gunowners protect this nations freedom? What are you talking about?

  9. #38
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Exactly. Almost every time we hear about a mass shooting it takes place in a location where the good guys have been legally disarmed under the guise of safety and security.


    I don't think anybody is saying that anyone should be REQUIRED to carry. Whether or not to carry is a personal decision and a great responsibility. The current standard is legal disarmament and it clearly doesn't work. What it DOES do is take away the choice from EVERYBODY.
    Edit: I should have said, everybody except the mass murderer or criminal who won't abide by any laws.


    I effectively agreed with you in another thread. Again, you are correct. Not everybody would be able to respond effectively. However, I don't see this as being justification for the current disarmament standards which means that nobody, including those who would do what it takes to be able to make a difference, has that option. Of course this raises the question of what standards should be required, to which I don't have a ready answer, but I do think it is time to take a different approach than gun free zones and additional restrictions on those who are not the problem.
    Actually I think most shootings are not necessarily in places where good guys can't carry guns, the recent mall shootings come to mind. I think it is just not enough people have an interest in carrying a firearm. The truth is not that there are millions of gunowners out there who were disarmed because of a law but that the millions of people are disarmed because they don't care to be armed.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingWalleye View Post
    I know a few teachers and for the most part they are very liberal in their views. However, I do know one middle school teacher who would be first in line for taking on the role of sheepdog.

    It works in Israel, why not here?
    You're not very familiar with Israel are you?

  12. #41
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    noway2. There is no easy answer, hell I can't even think of a simple one.

    To the OP I see what you are trying to say but I don't think it will ever happen. Most teacher, administrator and education organizations are anti gun not to mention the unions. With school budgets stretched to the limit already I do not see them putting out money to train teachers. Putting a teacher in this position as an armed responder would/could place them in the same category as armed security officers which require licensing and standards set by the state.

    This would also legally establish what is known as a "Duty of Care" for the teacher to respond to an active shooter. What if they fail or are two seconds to late to say a student? They are now civilly liable for their actions or inactions, who pays? The teacher, the school? What is the answer?

    In regards to the comments about the State of Israel. Israel has been at war for decades, their situation is a bit different. There are routine suicide bombings, rocket attacks, mass shootings and as everyone knows they are all armed. I have not heard of someone firing a rocket in Kansas lately.

    carracer the article was good I do notice however one of the people quoted stated "We need people who can shoot". Yes all for it. Train them, make standards and proficiency exams mandatory but then you get into more Government regulation and we all know how that goes over.

    Until the day comes that we do in fact lock down are schools, put up fences and have armed security patrolling the halls tragic events like this will happen. Yes locks, cameras, intercom's and so on will deter but a person determined to cause harm will in fact cause harm.
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  13. #42
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    I'm going to watch very closely what the political animals do...and tune out what they say...If there is an honest discourse the talking heads would be talking about the sad state of mental health in the nation...WHY do I suspect that most if not all of these young gun/mass murderers in public places are heavly drugged school children or former drugged school children...with issues...I do not think there is enough political will to restrict gun sales...ammunition is another matter...We are going out shopping this AM...(concealable pistols isnt on the list..but concealed pistol are on our hips))...

  14. #43
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    School security police? We have sworn school police officers at most Palm Beach County Florida schools. We have fences around each school but the question is do we have a single manned or gated entrance at each school that would prevent an individual from entering the classroom areas. No! In most cases the officers would be minutes away, a lifetime in a shooting rampage.

    I am sure that there is much more than is being reported as to why to this individual committed such a terribly act. Based on the news releases this individual simply broke a door window pane to gain entrance to the classroom areas.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Actually I think most shootings are not necessarily in places where good guys can't carry guns, the recent mall shootings come to mind.
    My last recollection was that the mall was posted. Whether or not that means anything in that state is another question. Regardless of whether signs are legally binding, a murderous criminal isn't going to care less about property rights than they do about laws.
    I think it is just not enough people have an interest in carrying a firearm. The truth is not that there are millions of gunowners out there who were disarmed because of a law but that the millions of people are disarmed because they don't care to be armed.
    I agree that there is an element of this too and this also makes it harder to change the standard that says nobody has the option. I work in a school. I am staff at a college (not a teacher). Almost weekly we receive alerts about everything from assaults to shootings, in a legal gun free zone (yes, shootings in yet another GFZ). Whats more is that the disarmament requirement has influence above and beyond the immediate school because it leaves me unable to carry anywhere along the way I may go to and from work. These incidents prove that the GFZs do NOT work and probably make them worse. Disarming me does nothing to enhance safety and just leaves me more vulnerable.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Honor bound? What are you talking about?

    Sorry but I don't think it is the teachers job anymore than the janitors job to protect the students from an armed gunman. The security guards and police at schools are but the teachers, janitors, administrators, nurses, and lunch ladies are not honor bound to risk their lives for little Jimmy and Suzy. It is not their job to defend the kids from armed gunmen or terrorists or anything like that.
    And yet they are required to bring up the possibility of abuse or sexual misconduct they suspect in the home. Make it a potential addition to there job description and pay em for it. Why is that hard to understand? Why shouldn't someone who dedicated there life to helping raise the future not want to be a protector to them. thats a whole different convo though.
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