Obama's speech - Page 10

Obama's speech

This is a discussion on Obama's speech within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ogien When was the last time this was a real life issue for you? It could very well have been an issue ...

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  1. #136
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    When was the last time this was a real life issue for you?
    It could very well have been an issue for one of four adults in Sandy Hook, had they even been allowed to bear arms...

    When was the last time you needed a fire extinguisher? Was it big enough? Lucky you.... My house couldn't be saved by firetrucks with hoses... let alone a wimpy fire extinguisher...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #137
    Member Array Denverjay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    I am certainly not Anti-2A I simply see that just as in government, all rights have to have checks and balances. Our rights can not infringe on the rights of others and at the moment they are. Many of us are sick and tired of burying our dead friends, family, neighbors and things are only getting worse.

    I believe you when you say you are a responsible and law abiding gun owner, so am I. The problem is that not all of us are and that many should not be allowed to own a gun due to mental instability or a criminal record. I hate to tell you this but if all we ever offer are talking points about the Second Amendment and "you can pry this gun from my cold dead hand" does make us look like gun nuts. I know it's derogatory and I don't like that label one bit, it hurts me. Thing is that we have terrible leadership and we are the ones making ourselves look like the proverbial "gun nuts."

    If someone refuses to even discuss the possibility that there is problem, doesn't matter even in what aspect of life, then that person starts to be perceived as a "nut." It's all the grandstanding and pig-headedness that is causing that label to stick and I'm personally sick of it.

    We have a problem, we need to face up to that fact and we need to be part of the solution. In order to be a part of the solution we (this community) needs to be able to discuss the issues like adults without all the grandstanding that accomplishes nothing.
    So for the purposes of this discussion, I'll concede all of your points. BUT what needs to happen, is any new proposals or laws, need to come at the problem in such a way as to address the INDIVIDUALS that are doing these things. NOT to come at the problem with a fire hose type approach that drastically limits or eliminates the rights of every law abiding gun owner in the nation.

    And the people that are waging this war on gun rights are doing the LATTER when what is needed is the FORMER. That is why we as gun owners are so up in arms (no pun intended) and defensive about this latest attack on our rights.

    So you say WE need to be able to discuss a solution. We're fine with discussing possible solutions, but what these anti-gun zealots are trying to do, is not a solution, it's the elimination or at the very least a massive gutting, of our rights as gun owners.

    They are using the tried and true dimocrat tactic of demanding a starting point for the negotiations include the other side already giving up and rolling over and then insisting on negotiations going from there. And we as gun owners don't HAVE to start the negotiations at a point where we've already lost. We have the constitution as our starting point, if they want to try to defeat that, be our guests. They'll be taken to the supreme court and defeated.

  3. #138
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    My Right and any law abiding citizen's Right to keep and bear Arms does not infringe on anyone else's Rights in any way shape or form. If it did, then the 2nd amendment and the entire Constitution would be paradoxical.

    The evil person who kills someone is the ONE who is infringing on someone else's Rights. Me and my Arms have nothing to do with that infringement.
    I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily about your personally. Thought you are incorrect about the Constitution being paradoxical as it is a document which our forefathers left the interpretation of to the Supreme Court. The problem is that this evil person was able to easily access firearms. Perhaps this particular case would have happened no matter what but what about many of the other killings? What about Colorado? You're absolutely right that the gun itself is not a problem in and of itself, it's the ease with which people, who shouldn't have that firearm, are able to obtain them not to mention the fact that the weapons they are acquiring were designed for maximum carnage. A weapon that is very close to military grade and the military needs weapons that cause maximum carnage to ensure we are victorious in past and future conflicts where our people are at risk.

  4. #139
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denverjay View Post
    So for the purposes of this discussion, I'll concede all of your points. BUT what needs to happen, is any new proposals or laws, need to come at the problem in such a way as to address the INDIVIDUALS that are doing these things. NOT to come at the problem with a fire hose type approach that drastically limits or eliminates the rights of every law abiding gun owner in the nation.

    And the people that are waging this war on gun rights are doing the LATTER when what is needed is the FORMER. That is why we as gun owners are so up in arms (no pun intended) and defensive about this latest attack on our rights.

    So you say WE need to be able to discuss a solution. We're fine with discussing possible solutions, but what these anti-gun zealots are trying to do, is not a solution, it's the elimination or at the very least a massive gutting, of our rights as gun owners.

    They are using the tried and true dimocrat tactic of demanding a starting point for the negotiations include the other side already giving up and rolling over and then insisting on negotiations going from there. And we as gun owners don't HAVE to start the negotiations at a point where we've already lost. We have the constitution as our starting point, if they want to try to defeat that, be our guests.
    I couldn't have said it better myself. You nailed it right on the head. Because of the way that politicians will use the "firehose" method of dealing with these issues is the very reason why the solution HAS to come from within our community. We either do it right to protect our 2A rights to the furthest extent possible while at the same time offering up a solution that contributes to the safety of our fellow citizens who are living in fear right now or we prepare for the "firehose."

    The reason they are using that tried and true method is because we NEVER EVER offer solutions. All we ever do is circle the wagons so they instinctively expect that we are people who can not be reasoned with.

  5. #140
    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    When was the last time this was a real life issue for you?
    Ogien, I'll play... what will you limit capacity to so everyone can be happy? Are handguns and rifles the same? Grandfathered or flat out ban/illegal? You know about the 2 worst school shootings in history right... where they took place, and what the laws are there, I'm assuming. Yes? Has the logic hit yet?
    bmcgilvray likes this.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by 91wm6 View Post
    After hearing the speech it really sounds like he has made the decision to go after our guns. I think now it's only a matter of how his administration will attempt to do it. If I had to guess I would say expect a new assault weapons ban with magazine restrictions at the minimum( and SOON)... There will be a lot of support from the liberals after the shooting unfortunately. What do you all think?
    What do you mean made the decision? He has been working on it for years. So called Brady bill step one step two all fire fire he told you what he was going to do long before this happened.

  7. #142
    Member Array rmxer85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    When was the last time this was a real life issue for you?
    When was the last time you had to shoot somone?

    We all are here based on "what if?"
    I thoroughly disapprove of duels.
    If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand
    and lead him to a quiet place and kill him.
    -Mark Twain

  8. #143
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    Phew....I have successfully emailed every single representative, congressman, and senator in my state. Whether they have a say in this or not they now all know my stance.
    Denverjay likes this.

  9. #144
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    there are enough votes in the House to pass a new AWB and ban on 10+ round magazines?

    according to which source?

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    The reason they are using that tried and true method is because we NEVER EVER offer solutions. All we ever do is circle the wagons so they instinctively expect that we are people who can not be reasoned with.
    That's just not true at all. Our side absolutely DOES offer solutions, the dims simply don't/won't even consider any solutions BUT theirs, and then they go out to their lapdog media and claim that no solutions were even offered...and do you think any of their media challenges them on it? If you do, you're living in a different world than I am.

  11. #146
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsay View Post
    Again. Bill B. on MTP brought up the possibility of having a firearm for "defense" in schools and I thought some heads were going to explode. Solutions have been offered. I'll prowl the halls as a volunteer, a couple times a month, maybe more. We can put signs on the school saying I'm there and I'm armed, but I won't do it defensless. Let a teacher have a gun, maybe even the principal. Stopping it at the source... make sense? Not if you don't have any.

    How far do you think the left will bend my way? Like the lady said Sunday, (paraphrasing) a firearm at a school would ulitmately cause more damage than it could prevent, most likely. In other words, I don't know sh()t but that solution is not like mine, and that makes you a *******, so it's not really a real solution. That's how they play the game. It doesn't change. Numbers and facts don't matter.
    I'm warming up to this idea actually. I realize that having volunteers for this type of thing is possible but I'm not convinced it's the best solution. We don't want our taxes to go up so hired people can't really be the answer. Police are stretched pretty thin as it is so I was thinking about a rotating calender for individuals from our armed services. They are already on the government payroll and they could be rotated but I think that they would likely have to do this type of duty without the standard uniform as that can be scary to children and even to adults.

    I don't know if this is a viable answer to the problem or not but it's something.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    I am certainly not Anti-2A I simply see that just as in government, all rights have to have checks and balances. Our rights can not infringe on the rights of others and at the moment they are. Many of us are sick and tired of burying our dead friends, family, neighbors and things are only getting worse.

    I believe you when you say you are a responsible and law abiding gun owner, so am I. The problem is that not all of us are and that many should not be allowed to own a gun due to mental instability or a criminal record. I hate to tell you this but if all we ever offer are talking points about the Second Amendment and "you can pry this gun from my cold dead hand" does make us look like gun nuts. I know it's derogatory and I don't like that label one bit, it hurts me. Thing is that we have terrible leadership and we are the ones making ourselves look like the proverbial "gun nuts."

    If someone refuses to even discuss the possibility that there is problem, doesn't matter even in what aspect of life, then that person starts to be perceived as a "nut." It's all the grandstanding and pig-headedness that is causing that label to stick and I'm personally sick of it.

    We have a problem, we need to face up to that fact and we need to be part of the solution. In order to be a part of the solution we (this community) needs to be able to discuss the issues like adults without all the grandstanding that accomplishes nothing.
    Why do you insist on lumping me and every other Law Abiding Citizen into the same group as the evil people? We are not the same because we both possess the same classification of Arms. That would be like saying all skiers are criminals because criminals use ski masks. It doesn't work that way.

    You said, "The problem is that not all of us are and that many should not be allowed to own a gun due to mental instability or a criminal record."

    If criminals and mentally unstable people are in fact the problem then prevent them and only them from owning Arms. Which by the way is what happened in this incident. Our current system worked. The evil person stole the guns. He attained the guns illegally. He did not own the instruments which he used while HE WAS KILLING those innocent people. Evil people don't follow laws or regulations. If they did, this evil person wouldn't have brought guns into a "gun free zone". You can not legislate away evil.
    Regards,
    1MoreGoodGuy
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    Behave Like Someone Who is Determined to be FREE!

  13. #148
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    I'm warming up to this idea actually. I realize that having volunteers for this type of thing is possible but I'm not convinced it's the best solution. We don't want our taxes to go up so hired people can't really be the answer. Police are stretched pretty thin as it is so I was thinking about a rotating calender for individuals from our armed services. They are already on the government payroll and they could be rotated but I think that they would likely have to do this type of duty without the standard uniform as that can be scary to children and even to adults.

    I don't know if this is a viable answer to the problem or not but it's something.
    Of course this would only be a partial, though quite potent, solution for protecting our schools or monsters. Now what can we do to HELP prevent the type of tragedy that took place in that Colorado movie theater? Mind you that I said HELP prevent instead of prevent because there will never be 100% guarantee that such crimes won't happen again but if we can at least reduce their frequency that would be fantastic.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yes, a matter of seconds--- a jogger doing 6 minute miles covers 8.8 feet in a second. In a matter of seconds a defender
    in an adrenalin rush could have covered enough ground to plow him over. Grapple with him for 3 more seconds and another
    adult could have jumped in.

    I realize elementary school teachers are not trained to fight, but they are would be momma bears. So yes, a few seconds
    could have made a difference. We don't know because we have no clue how, or where, or when the 6 adults died and what
    if any effort they were making to defend themselves and the children.
    Do you have some new info on the size of the magazines the shooter in Conn was using that the rest of us don't have?

  15. #150
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Why do you insist on lumping me and every other Law Abiding Citizen into the same group as the evil people? We are not the same because we both possess the same classification of Arms. That would be like saying all skiers are criminals because criminals use ski masks. It doesn't work that way.

    You said, "The problem is that not all of us are and that many should not be allowed to own a gun due to mental instability or a criminal record."

    If criminals and mentally unstable people are in fact the problem then prevent them and only them from owning Arms. Which by the way is what happened in this incident. Our current system worked. The evil person stole the guns. He attained the guns illegally. He did not own the instruments which he used while HE WAS KILLING those innocent people. Evil people don't follow laws or regulations. If they did, this evil person wouldn't have brought guns into a "gun free zone". You can not legislate away evil.
    The reason I'm lumping you in with me is because this has become collectively OUR problem.

    You are right, the system worked but I fear that this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Way too many massacre's lately to keep ignoring the problem.

    In other words we either swim together or sink together and that's why this problem is both yours and mine.

    Edit: To put it yet another way, I need your help. I need the help of the entire community. We need each other to come up with reasonable solutions from our end that may contribute to reducing the amount of mass shootings. If we can't pull together and do this than rules and laws will be imposed on us without our say and entirely out of our control.

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