Obama's speech

This is a discussion on Obama's speech within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Limiting magazine capacity IMO isn't an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, whereas not having national reciprocity actually ...

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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Limiting magazine capacity IMO isn't an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, whereas not having national reciprocity actually is an infringement on that right; a very real infringement.
    It's true that state governments have usurped power in violation of 2A, but your opinion is wrong. "Limiting", by definition, especially in the historic and, unfortunately, too political context of this forum, is "infringement".
    So I see trading something trivial (high cap) for something worthwhile (full national reciprocity) as a pretty darn good deal for the concealed carry community.

    Heck, we don't conceal carry 30 rounders; they won't fit IWB, in an ankle holster, or in a shoulder holster. Instead if we feel the need we carry an extra mag or an extra gun or both. So from the point of view of concealed carry and defensive carry of handguns, giving up high cap is a big nothing. I'll trade a big nothing for something any time.
    "Shall not be infringed" is a big something.
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  3. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    re: Part in bold--- So too a NY reload. I honestly can't recall a report here of an HD going down that way. And realistically,
    if you need to be putting out that much lead, you've got a bunch of really bad dudes dishing it out in the other direction. You won't likely come out alive. It is HD for crying out loud, not Pork Chop Hill.
    NY reload - would work but is likely to require either taking your eyes off the perps or moving to the storage location for the backup. I would prefer to have the ability not to be tied to the storage location in case I need it.

    As for the HIR scenario, I did not say it would be likely, fun or survivable, but it is not out of the realm of possible in this day and age. Then again, if I get to pick my HIR scenario, well, I think I will just pass. But I have to prepare for the possible.

    I know you are keen to male a deal with the devil (figure of speech, not calling any key the actual devil), but I say either make them amend the constitution or make O sign an EO to get what he wants. The first would pass constitutional muster, the second would not. I am in flyover country and what I am hearing from the rank and file is not promising if gun rights are significantly curtailed.
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  4. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Granted that. But think quickly. Something is going to happen which we won't like. If we can shape a solution which
    is relatively benign, we should. Would you rather lose high cap or lose the .223 round? I wouldn't put it past some
    legislatures to outlaw that particular round and put a 7 year penalty on it the way NJ does with hollow points. See,
    we better being pouring some oil on the waters before the storm swamps the boat.
    I'll post this again...

    Here are a few ideas we should try first:

    Build safe rooms in schools.

    Install better doors in the classrooms.

    Install impenetrable quarantine doors/gates that can be activated during an active shooter emergency.


    There are probably a few more things we could add to this list if we all take a moment to THINK of solutions instead of infringements.
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  5. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    RE: part in bold. The motive is to save lives and that should be evident from the recent series of tragedies.


    Only someone who is naïve in the extreme or is willfully blinding himself actually believes that "saving lives" is the motive. By Friday evening there were those in government who were gleefully admitting that here at last was an opportunity to exploit to expand gun control. No direct reference to which party those government officials belong need be included here.


    I'm not volunteering you to give up your high cap. I'm telling you they are going to go whether you like it or not, so you and everyone on here better start thinking about how to mitigate
    the inevitable with some sort of proposal where we at least get a kind of win out of the deal.


    It takes amazing prescience to know this to be a fact at this point. We might be able to "circle our wagons" and defend the status quo on gun control unless we cave, open a breach, and attempt to bargain with those who operate in bad faith and have their own rabidly anti-gun agenda. We've done nothing wrong and don't need to bargain for a "kind of win" with duplicitous politicians who don't hold American liberty dear.


    The courts read the newspapers and know what the public sentiment is. They won't get in the
    way of laws banning high cap or even banning the .223 round. We can yell and scream and
    complain all we want, but there is an inevitable backlash coming now that is going to undo
    30 years of gain if we don't figure out how to parry it.



    Yes but how effective will that backlash be? You bet we need to parry it and blunt it's effectiveness but a parry is fending off a blow not caving in to it!
    As it is some are giving up before the fight's even started.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    NY reload - would work but is likely to require either taking your eyes off the perps or moving to the storage location for the backup. I would prefer to have the ability not to be tied to the storage location in case I need it.

    As for the HIR scenario, I did not say it would be likely, fun or survivable, but it is not out of the realm of possible in this day and age. Then again, if I get to pick my HIR scenario, well, I think I will just pass. But I have to prepare for the possible.

    I know you are keen to male a deal with the devil (figure of speech, not calling any key the actual devil), but I say either make them amend the constitution or make O sign an EO to get what he wants. The first would pass constitutional muster, the second would not. I am in flyover country and what I am hearing from the rank and file is not promising if gun rights are significantly curtailed.
    K -- re: part in bold. Not 1/3 of mile from me 4 men broke into an occupied house so you are absolutely correct that it is
    not out of the realm of the possible. Of course, it probably was one bunch of druggies stealing from another--- though the papers have been silent on it all.

    And you are certainly right that a NY reload won't quite match the efficacy of a high cap.

    The problem of course is we live in a practical world that is crying out for a practical step which can be taken to mitigate
    the number and extent of mass murders by crazies. Something is going to be done, and we had better pick our poison if we can before it is picked for us.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    As it is some are giving up before the fight's even started.
    No, just pointing out reality.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  8. #232
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    I am not the OP, but I was the guy suggesting giving up something to get national reciprocity (though that was just an example that came to mind).

    Except for the few shall issue states, everyone has been infringed vs. what the constitution says. Do you need a license of any sort do do anything with an arm of any sort? Then you have been infringed. Can you get a RPG, which you would define as an arm? If yes, you have been infringed. Most can't get a fully auto .50 cal. This infringes. This has been going on for more than 50% of the life of this country. It has been interpreted by some of the brightest minds we have in govt , supreme court and general public.

    I am with hopyard here. If you know you are going to lose, mitigate your lose, or better yet, turn it around to take some advantage of it.
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  9. #233
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    If you know you are going to lose, mitigate your lose, or better yet, turn it around to take some advantage of it.
    That sounds like its coming from someone that got a trophy on a sports team just for showing up or getting a trophy for last place so that your self esteem wouldn't be damaged.

    I'd rather fight to the death and at least know that I didn't cave in when times looked bleak. I surround myself with people of like mindset.
    At least I wouldnt have to look my loved ones in the eye and tell them that I figured we would lose anyway so I didnt fight so hard.

    Why not just raise the white flag of surrrender and keep from getting dirty? Heck, you might get hurt if you try to fight.Just thrown down your morals, your rights and your freedoms, because you wont need them.

    You want to give up my rights so that you can enjoy national reciprocity when I come from a state that already honors 39 other states. I have nothing to gain and what to lose now?
    Thats pretty selfish of you to piss away MY rights because your people arent smart enough how to get it in your own state. Yeah, thats just brilliant. Just hang us all out to dry why dont you?

    I am amazed at the propensity of some our our members to just give up without a fight. If this weenie mentality is prevalent in our society, perhaps we are more screwed that I orginally thought.

    I dont want anyone that would give up without a fight anywhere close to me. It may be programmed into some people but I am not one of them.

    Losing is for losers.

    The reality of it is...you never know until you try.
    I'm not willing to give up and declare defeat yet like many others.

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  10. #234
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    The media is now starting to show the other side (let honest people) of gun legislation god bless texas, allow CCH to have guns everywhere including schools to avoid these incidents..
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  11. #235
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    Yeah, there is another side to all the fevered ban talk that's been promoted by the media. This whole media and politically instigated episode may be "generating more heat than light." The gun grabbers, with their hype, propaganda, and agitation, may not be able to sustain the mood long enough. There are lots of Americans that do not want additional firearms restrictions.

    Limbaugh touched on this today. Love him or hate him, the transcription of his broadcast makes some very interesting points. It might even provide some hope.
    Emotions Rule Political Responses to Shooting - The Rush Limbaugh Show
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  12. #236
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    Laws based on emotions are almost exclusively bad laws. OMO
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The problem of course is we live in a practical world that is crying out for a practical step which can be taken to mitigate the number and extent of mass murders by crazies. Something is going to be done, and we had better pick our poison if we can before it is picked for us.
    You don't have a clue what the problem is that patriots addressed in founding this country, "a Republic, if we can keep it." The problem isn't practicality but tyranny and extreme lunacy. I hear you crying for a self-defiling political solution that does nothing to address the problem.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  14. #238
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    "The problem of course is we live in a practical world that is crying out for a practical step..."

    The problem of course is that we live in a foolish world, perpetually in a stupor and bleating for a misplaced step...

    Practicality doesn't even play a part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The problem of course is we live in a practical world that is crying out for a practical step which can be taken to mitigate the number and extent of mass murders by crazies. Something is going to be done, and we had better pick our poison if we can before it is picked for us.
    In a practical world we would look around and see if there is a model for school security that works and if there is, implement it. There is, and Israel has it. Hop, I know I don't have to tell you this, but the Israelis live in a relatively small country where their neighbors are ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL THEM. They still have managed to secure their schools. Instead of giving up liberties, why don't we suggest a system that works and stands a much better chance of solving the problem?

    I would argue that we don't, here in the US, live in a practical world. We live in a world where, increasingly, everyone does what is right in his own eyes while demanding a government to protect and provide for them. Israel has a history with that idea as well. That is one we would do well to learn from their error and avoid - but we seem to be embracing it to our peril.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigrebleau View Post
    Yup. Look for a full-on assault. Restrictions on mag capacity, ban on any semi-autos, registration, mental health checks, you name it - we're gonna see it. And anyone who objects will be vilified as hating children.

    Spot on.


    What is really disgusting is the fact that the deaths of those poor children, and the grief their families are going through...is being EXPLOITED (AKA: whored) by the left, who has all the evidence that us gun owners are good peppes, etc...they "just don;t like guns", so they feel the need to wipe their fanny with a some obscure document called the constitution....


    Sad indeed our great country is heading this way....


    After all...Gun control worked for Nazi Germany and soviet Russsia....just ask any surviving subjects...er...I mean citizens...


    :(
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