Newtown Shooting -- Ban Guns -- Why not change ....

This is a discussion on Newtown Shooting -- Ban Guns -- Why not change .... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well... The conversation between folks like us, the media, the anti's, and just about everyone else is about guns, and who should have what. I ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Well...

    The conversation between folks like us, the media, the anti's, and just about everyone else is about guns, and who should have what. I believe this is the least important material when it comes to hashing out this and other shootings. I believe that mental and medical health should play a larger pert of the conversation. The makers of vidio games need be included as well. Also the responsibility of those school administrators, mall management, moviehouse management.

    If any of these mass murderers had used explosives... we'd need to have the same conversation. IMO Firearms have the least effect on these situations. But firearms are the low hanging fruit, and politicians tend to go after the low hanging fruit.

    I'd like to see what drugs or combination of drugs was in the murderer's body when he flipped. I understand that he was ADHD, and bordering on autistic. Could the pharmasutical companies bear some responsibility?

    If a juvinile, or stunted mind spends a lot of time playing vidio games that are extremely graphic, and violent. Can we not expect that some few will act out their vidio fantasy. Look at almost every movie directed at young people , all the vidio games, TV shows, use ridicule as a means of control, and violence as a soloutions. Some of this has to rub off on young minds.

    This nation is at war, and has been for some time, What is it going to take for administrators, and managers to accept that they are responsible for a soft target. All soft targets shuld have some plan of action in the case of attack

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    If a juvinile, or stunted mind spends a lot of time playing vidio games that are extremely graphic, and violent. Can we not expect that some few will act out their vidio fantasy. Look at almost every movie directed at young people , all the vidio games, TV shows, use ridicule as a means of control, and violence as a soloutions. Some of this has to rub off on young minds.

    I have seen and heard a lot of people talking about this very thing. But I am of the opinion that this is no better an excuse than "the devil made me do it". No matter how many video games with violence I have played or how many shoot em up movies I have seen, I know enough to separate them from reality.

    The reality is this, nobody parents their children anymore. If you grow up without fear of punishment, you won't care about what you do because you've never had consequences. If you look at the startling statistics about crime and kids from broken or single parent homes, you'd epect the left to legislate parenting (and I wouldn't put it past our current president, he could call the program "Barry's Kids")
    mulle46, 1MoreGoodGuy and GoldDot like this.
    As Benjamin Franklin left the hall in Philadelphia, he was asked, “What kind of government have you given us, Dr. Franklin?” He replied: “A republic, if you can keep it.”

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    Well...

    The conversation between folks like us, the media, the anti's, and just about everyone else is about guns, and who should have what. I believe this is the least important material when it comes to hashing out this and other shootings. I believe that mental and medical health should play a larger pert of the conversation. The makers of vidio games need be included as well. Also the responsibility of those school administrators, mall management, moviehouse management.

    If any of these mass murderers had used explosives... we'd need to have the same conversation. IMO Firearms have the least effect on these situations. But firearms are the low hanging fruit, and politicians tend to go after the low hanging fruit.

    I'd like to see what drugs or combination of drugs was in the murderer's body when he flipped. I understand that he was ADHD, and bordering on autistic. Could the pharmasutical companies bear some responsibility?

    If a juvinile, or stunted mind spends a lot of time playing vidio games that are extremely graphic, and violent. Can we not expect that some few will act out their vidio fantasy. Look at almost every movie directed at young people , all the vidio games, TV shows, use ridicule as a means of control, and violence as a soloutions. Some of this has to rub off on young minds.

    This nation is at war, and has been for some time, What is it going to take for administrators, and managers to accept that they are responsible for a soft target. All soft targets shuld have some plan of action in the case of attack
    Secret,
    I think your expectation that movie owners accept responsibility for their soft target, or that mall management/owners
    accept responsibility for their soft target, is quite unrealistic.

    Let me explain. OK, you and I are Bronx boys, granted about a generation apart in age, but been there as they say.

    So, turn the clock back to the 1950s/60s. Should that small movie theater owner on Allerton Ave between Holland Ave
    and Cruger (it is long gone) have a need even to worry about much besides a kid sneaking in?
    How about the Palace Theater on The Grand Concourse near Fordham. Yea, if it is still there its lost its glitz and glory, maybe
    before you were born, but isn't security for places like that really the responsibility of the folks you worked for?

    If you say no it isn't, then why does the city provide special armed units to guard the stuff around Columbus Circle,
    or the big museums. Can The Bronx zoo really be secured? From the Fordham side to the Lexington tracks down
    to Tremont/E 180th/and on to Southern Blvd, can it be secured by private efforts?

    We live in a much more dangerous world then before, and part of what must be done is share the responsibility for
    making it safer.
    We can't rely on the cops alone; we can't rely on our gun-toting selves alone; we can't rely on private businesses or
    even publicly owned facilities to do the job-- even with advice and assistance from NYPD.

    Then multiply the problem across the entire country.

    I watch movies at a multi-plex style theater. Often there are no more than 2 or 3 employees selling popcorn and
    tickets at the same time. They are kids. Could I afford to go to the theater if the owner "took responsibility"
    and hired a professional security team? What would his liability insurance look like after?

    I don't have an answer and there may well be none that are anywhere near satisfactory, but glib commentary
    isn't it either. (Since you are one of the more sensible folks here and someone I've grown to really respect,
    I don't mean to sound harsh, but I just
    think what you posted needs some more deep thought).
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    LOL The Bronx Rules....lol

    OK.. I believe that I suggested that were living in different times. If not let me clear it up. We as a country are at war with an idiology supported by several rich and powerfull countries. These people have rought their hatred and idiology to our country, and have conducted military operations against the civilian population of the U.S. I'm suggesting that people who own or manage certain venue's accept that they are soft targets. Criminality is really no different than at any time in the past. Certain crimes do trend, and it seems were in a spate of criminal crazies attacking people at soft targets. I'm only suggesting that as responsible owners, and managers this should be taken into consideration.


    Those small theaters on Allerton, and Fordham met their demise due to rising costs, and the advent of cable TV. But the 50's and 60's was a different time. The threat was virtually non existant. The Lowes Paradise was the scene of one of the longest lasting shootouts in the Bronx between the Police and a guy wanted for a bunch of stuff including shooting. During the late 80's there were quite a few shootings in popular movie houses. So many that most theaters began employing armed security. I myself worked armed security in the Paramount on Broadway and 46th.

    Colombus circle, as well as times squair business have formed alliances, and provide extra security as well as added sanitation/clean up workers.

    Sadly there's not much left at 180 and tremont, the Tracks and trains of the NY central are patrolled by private police of Con-Rail, and MTA police (commuter rail) by hellicopter, and on trains. At one time the Bronx Zoo had it's own private police dept. As of today the NYPD provides permenantly assigned officers and seasonal details. Certain exibits have private security posts.

    I'm not suggesting that anyone not be self reliant. I'd prefer that anyone who is willing to accept the responsibility to go about armed. But most people wont. I'm only suggesting that owners, and managers take responsibility and make real world security considerations.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    As long as we continue to stand up, and speak the truth, the perpetrators of the nanny state will not prevail.

    It is truly a simple argument of good vs evil. A good man with a gun will beat an evil man with a gun every time. Eliminate nonsensical "gun free zones" where victims assemble freely, and the mass shooting will become but a distant, horrible memory.

    I realize I'm preaching to the choir, but we all need to continue stating the truth, and the truth will eventually win out.
    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I have seen and heard a lot of people talking about this very thing. But I am of the opinion that this is no better an excuse than "the devil made me do it". No matter how many video games with violence I have played or how many shoot em up movies I have seen, I know enough to separate them from reality.

    The reality is this, nobody parents their children anymore. If you grow up without fear of punishment, you won't care about what you do because you've never had consequences. If you look at the startling statistics about crime and kids from broken or single parent homes, you'd epect the left to legislate parenting (and I wouldn't put it past our current president, he could call the program "Barry's Kids")

    I work part time in a gun shop. I/we noticed a lot of younger people coming in to purchase firearms were asking for some real heavy duty, or obscure stuff. One in particular fellow asked to price out an M-4 style A/R with a whole bunch of top of the line optics, and enhancements. The Gun priced out at around $3,700. The kid was shocked. One older salesman asked him what was the gun for, and where did he get the list?... From a game.

    I'm not suggesting that anyone is going to act out a game, but it certainly has some effect on todays youth as much as the moral values of the movies I watched as a kid had on me. Were all a product of our environment, and if someone is a dedicating enough time with a game system to try and buy their imaginary weapon in the real world the game has had an effect.

    This is NOT an excuse for behaviour. But I truely want to understand what can be a contributing factor. Sometimes the devil did make them do it. There is enough purely evil individuals in the world to make it obvious to me that the devil is hard at work...

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array VBVAGUY's Avatar
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    You all remember the Oregon Mall Shooting a few weeks back ??? Did you all know that a GG that was CCW'ing may have stopped more of the murders that was commited, however none of the news came out with it. Here is the link. The truth is out there.......God Bless


    Oregon Mall Shooting: Brave Citizen With Concealed Carry May Have Saved Lives :: Minute Men News

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Sadly, reason & logic rarely prevail over intense emotion.

    I have no answers to preserve our 2A right. While I will continue to fight for preservation of our God given rights to life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness,
    I fear it's too late. This country is on and continues to follow a path of ruination.
    2a is the tip of a iceberg that runs very, very deep. ALL rights have already been degraded.

    Pro 2A defenders are fighting little more than a (delaying) action. I don't see the cavalry coming over the hill.

    An earlier post said it's time we talk about this. OK..Here ya go:

    We live in a country of sheep as evidenced by who occupies the highest office in the land.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

  10. #24
    Member Array Topsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    You are using common sense and logic. Politicians and government in general uses knee jerk, media biased "uncommon" sense and idiocy.
    Yep.

    Join the NRA.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    Sometimes the devil did make them do it. There is enough purely evil individuals in the world to make it obvious to me that the devil is hard at work...
    If God can't make a person pray then the devil can't make a person do evil. It's an excuse. Oh, hes hard at work, but people have a free will and have to lend themselves over to evil.

    As for games and your example, I hear you. My son (who is 8) asked me if I had a Walther PPK (james bond game) and if it was a good gun. Am I afraid he will steal my Glock and go to school and massacre his classmates? Of course not. He knows that if he ever TOUCHES my weapon when I am not there means a good deal of butt whipping. Again, some FEAR of reprisal is a good thing.
    As Benjamin Franklin left the hall in Philadelphia, he was asked, “What kind of government have you given us, Dr. Franklin?” He replied: “A republic, if you can keep it.”

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    This whole ban the guns thing isnt about safety or the children or Conn. It is about control, plain and simple. This situation is an excuse to implement an agenda they have had for a long time. Dont kid yourselves.
    Last edited by Chief1297; December 21st, 2012 at 11:19 AM.
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