News: 'Students taught to attack if gunman appears'
This is a discussion on News: 'Students taught to attack if gunman appears' within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Note: I wasn't sure where to post this so mods please excse if it needs to be moved.
Students taught to attack if gunman appears
October 14th, 2006 12:57 AM
News: 'Students taught to attack if gunman appears'
Note: I wasn't sure where to post this so mods please excse if it needs to be moved.
Students taught to attack if gunman appears
'We show them they can win,' instructor says of Texas school district
Updated: 5:46 p.m. ET Oct 13, 2006
BURLESON, Texas - Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they've got — books, pencils, legs and arms.
“Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success,” said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.
That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.
But school officials in Burleson said they are drawing on the lessons learned from a string of disasters such as Columbine in 1999 and the Amish schoolhouse attack in Pennsylvania last week.
The school system in this working-class suburb of about 26,000 is believed to be the first in the nation to train all its teachers and students to fight back, Browne said.
At Burleson — which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students — the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquets.
Students are also instructed not to comply with a gunman’s orders, and to take him down.
Aim for head
Browne recommends students and teachers “react immediately to the sight of a gun by picking up anything and everything and throwing it at the head and body of the attacker and making as much noise as possible. Go toward him as fast as we can and bring them down.”
Response Options trains students and teachers to “lock onto the attacker’s limbs and use their body weight,” Browne said. Everyday classroom objects, such as paperbacks and pencils, can become weapons.
“We show them they can win,” he said. “The fact that someone walks into a classroom with a gun does not make them a god. Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun.”
The fight-back training parallels the change in thinking that has occurred since Sept. 11, when United Flight 93 made it clear that the usual advice during a hijacking — Don’t try to be a hero, and no one will get hurt — no longer holds. Flight attendants and passengers are now encouraged to rush the cockpit.
Similarly, women and youngsters are often told by safety experts to kick, scream and claw their way out during a rape attempt or a child-snatching.
In 1998 in Oregon, a 17-year-old high school wrestling star with a bullet in his chest stopped a rampage by tackling a teenager who had opened fire in the cafeteria. The gunman killed two students, as well as his parents, and 22 other were wounded.
Will kids have common sense?
Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.
“If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who’s to blame,” she said. “How much common sense will a student have in a time of panic?”
Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff’s Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.
“You’re telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields,” he said. “If my school was teaching that, I’d be upset, frankly.”
Some students said they appreciate the training.
“It’s harder to hit a moving target than a target that is standing still,” said 14-year-old Jessica Justice, who received the training over the summer during freshman orientation at Burleson High.
Lesson from Columbine
William Lassiter, manager of the North Carolina-based Center for Prevention of School Violence, said past attacks indicate that fighting back, at least by teachers and staff, has its merits.
“At Columbine, teachers told students to get down and get on the floors, and gunmen went around and shot people on the floors,” Lassiter said. “I know this sounds chaotic and I know it doesn’t sound like a great solution, but it’s better than leaving them there to get shot.”
Lassiter questioned, however, whether students should be included in the fight-back training: “That’s going to scare the you-know-what out of them.”
Most of the freshman class at Burleson’s high school underwent instruction during orientation, and eventually all Burleson students will receive some training, even the elementary school children.
“We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do,” said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. She said students and teachers should have “a fighting chance in every situation.”
“It’s terribly sad that when I get up in the morning that I have to wonder what may happen today either in our area or in the nation,” Gilbert said. “Something that happens in Pennsylvania has that ripple effect across the country.”
Burleson High Principal Paul Cash said he has received no complaints from parents about the training. Stacy Vaughn, the president of the Parent-Teacher Organization at Norwood Elementary in Burleson, supports the program.
“I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist,” Vaughn said.
The story can be found at; http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15253321
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
October 14th, 2006 01:37 AM
I think they might be on to somthing here.....
October 14th, 2006 03:39 AM
I think it is a great idea. The people that have reservations against this type of training are setting their kids up to be victims, not survivors. Just because they are kids does not mean that they won't keep a cool head. They might just be suprised.
October 14th, 2006 04:04 AM
If your going to die, go down fighting.
USN 78-82/USAF 82-93 Medically Retired
Desert Shield/Desert Storm
DAV Life Member
NRA Life Member
October 14th, 2006 05:06 AM
I hink it is a great idea. Anything that makes it harder for the BG to do harm is worth it in my book.
"Dont be afraid to go after what you want to do, and what you want to be. But don't be afraid to be willing to pay the price." - Lane Frost
October 14th, 2006 06:58 AM
they are asking who would be to blame if kids got hurt trying to attack the attacker?????????? gee i dont know MAYBE THE GUY SHOOTING UP THE SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i mean come on have them sit there and get shot or shot trying to save some fellow students.
October 14th, 2006 07:15 AM
You Do Realize...
that if the BG attacking the school should retain injuries after being rushed by 20 students throwing books, the BG would have a great time suing each family for injuries received...blah, blah, blah...(not in Florida, of course, but in lots of other states)...
It's a crazy world!
I do think that fighting back is the right thing to do...someone may be badly injured or worse, but I could live more ealisy with the fact that one of my sons was shot defending himself or others...rather...than shot while he was hiding under a desk. Both would be difficult to handle, but there is a difference.
Stay alert...stay aggressive...stay alive!
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member[/B]
October 14th, 2006 07:15 AM
Like the 14yr old in the other thread who shot to save himself and his mother from certain carving-up from an armed kidnapper.
Originally Posted by steve63
This is a good example of how soft the barriers are to understanding. It takes a lot, but it's that simple. A situation demanding alternative thinking, a dose of reality in that thinking, cajones and a clear consideration of one's responsibility ... to the parents and children, not to traditional social norms. It would be criminal if this principal and the other folks in that school district don't survive this act. It's inspired. It's the first thing I've heard of since duck 'n' cover ( ) that has a hope of doing any good at all. Good for them!
Now, if only this experiment can put up the sort of numbers that Texans are famous for, then perhaps the rest of the perverted souls in leadership positions in this country can remove their upper round thingies from their lower round thingies and start taking practical action in this same direction. Kudos.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 14th, 2006 08:15 AM
We'll probably see the classic "My child gets hurt by this I'll sue" mentality somewhere. What I would hope for, though, is a change in our society back to the concept that a citizen should stand against evil and help to protect others, even our kids. I certainly raised mine on that idea. If this was ever implemented on a wide ranging basis i'm sure we would see more selective school attacks, most likely where they don't teach this.
As a side note I've always been a bit torqued by the fact that schools have never offered street level self defense classes, especially to the young ladies. I know this is probably thanks to the left leaning attitudes of the school system but you can bet if I'd raised a girl, she'd of had several courses, one way or another, and not in some silly after school dojo factory either!
If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.
October 14th, 2006 04:35 PM
It is important to teach kids when it is no longer correct to 'follow the rules of good behavior'. I have had discussions with both of my daughters about fighting for their life. When we first started having these, the kids thought and verbalized, "won't we get in trouble". It never occured to them that the other guy wasn't going to follow the law and was really going to harm them. So it is about time we start teaching children how to act rather than just sit there and be tortured and die.
The world is a dangerous place to live... not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein
October 14th, 2006 11:52 PM
"A good defense is a great offense."
If you take a defensive stand, you are at the mercy of the attacker. Everyone needs to take the iniative to train themselfs so they can take the offensive and take control of the situation away from the attacker. That is when the victims will begin to win. Look at any failed attempt of a high school shooting. Either someone older took authority of the situation and the student had enough respect for them that they stopped, or someone forced control away from the attacker.
October 15th, 2006 10:11 AM
I think this is a great idea! Since many of the attackers are school kids themselves, going through the training will show them what is going to happen to them if they decide to shoot up the school. It may discourage some students from doing something because they know that they will be set upon by a mob. That alone would cut down on the number of school shootings.
October 15th, 2006 10:16 AM
"We must remember that one man is much
the same as another, and that he is best
who is trained in the severest school."
~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War
October 16th, 2006 02:22 AM
While I am a big fan of going down fighting. This is a bad idea. Most children are not capable of understanding the use of force laws. This is only going to lead to more injuries and law suits. Children should not have to defend themselves in school, that is the job of the school. This is why teachers should be armed. There should be armed school officials on campus. This is far safer and would be more effective.
October 16th, 2006 09:47 AM
I would much rather be injured then dead laying under a desk. And I think beyond maybe elementry aged kids, I think they do have the capacity to understand the use of force laws once taught. I think it just opens up a last resort.
Originally Posted by mrsci
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