Columbine Dad speaks out

This is a discussion on Columbine Dad speaks out within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Scott. God needs to be brought back into our schools. However, since his words were not of condemnation of evil ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array SgtRick's Avatar
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    I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Scott. God needs to be brought back into our schools. However, since his words were not of condemnation of evil guns I'm sure that they fell on deaf ears.

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  3. #17
    Member Array Maximpactguns's Avatar
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    Well I'm not against ANYONE having personal faith of ANY KIND. If it helps you and makes your life positive and warming thats awesome! Just don't press it on others and certainly don't say it would have changed history or someone's mind. Again I respect anyone unless they're wanting to inflict deadly harm to me or my family.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximpactguns View Post
    I've been holding my tongue on this for a minute or two but now I have to say something. Christianity is no worse off than Islam. Both of your religions are filled with bloodshed and brutality. Salem Witch Trials, Crusades, all death to mass amounts of innocent people in the name of God. I hate religion to be honest and have always and only had myself in hard times. I've kept to morals of responsibility and have utmost respect for most individuals. Hell I even volunteer for Habitat for Humanity which is a Christian based company because I like helping people. Separation of Church & State is one of the most important parts....

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Thomas Jefferson

    You cannot honestly tell me, by this kid having Jesus or God in his life would have made a difference. He was having issues to begin with. It's like sending a homosexual to a Christian camp to wash the "gayness" out of him or her. It just doesn't work that way. The BTK serial killer from Kansas was a Church going individual and a huge part of his community. Yet behind closed doors was a sadistic psychotic nut job. Look at all the Boyscouts of America leaders under fire because of child molestation! Where do they usually have meetings and what religion do they involve themselves with.... Christianity. How can you explain that? And Brocktice has the right thinking about Morals do NOT have to be religious in nature. I just have compassion for most people especially those who need a leg up. I'll keep my guns & constitution because thats as much freedom as I need and want. Not trying to offend you at all man I'm just saying you have to think from a different perspective. I've been making this argument with my family for years now who are EXTREMELY Christian. I can never get an honest answer from them on it at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefs-special-guy View Post
    I am a Catholic Christian, first and foremost. It supersedes the US Constitution, America, and everything else. Sorry, but my first allegiance is to Christ. The teachers at my childrens' schools are mostly very decent people. and I like and respect them. But they are not qualified to lead or instruct my kids in religious matters. That is not their job. I worry that many people where I live- in Alabama- have no understanding of my faith. Faith is too important to have the state touch it. Countries, even the US, pass away. Christ does not. Give to Caesar what he is due, but give to God what He is due. So, despite the fundamental importance I assign to prayer and meditation, I am very leery of having any sort of "religious" practices in public schools. Others may sincerely disagree, and I understand their points of view. But for me, i want the state completely out of my faith.
    Good stuff in both quotes, IMO.

    The bottom line, as far as I see it, is all the blame of "taking God out of schools" is just another lame excuse. Some of these kids are just jacked up in the head. Some may be misguided and lost spiritually, but "God in school" isn't anywhere near the problem. I think you could make an argument for "God at home" though. It's easy to say that removing religion from the public arenas is the culprit, but the public arenas aren't where a healthy spiritual, moral compass buds, grows and culminates in anyone. That's a home thing. That's a private thing or a church thing. It's not a "kids don't get to pray in school so bad things happen" kind of thing. Might as well blame the gun and hop on the "ban the gun" bandwagon because one's about as correct as the other...

    Anyway, some of these kids just have significant mental issues; sometimes undiagnosed, serious problems. Eric Harris was one. Looking back at everything, the doctors that did mental evals on him concluded that he was, quite honestly, a sociopath. Hid it well, like most of them do and given his age, not getting that diagnosis correct at the time is probably a frequent mistake (as frequent as diagnosing teenage sociopaths go anyway), plus they had access to material that they didn't have while he was alive. It's too soon to tell with Adam Lanza but obviously his issues, to some degree, were much closer to the surface. Whether those issues are the ones that lead him to the choices he made is another question that may not ever be fully understood.

    What makes a child do these sorts of heinous acts? Genetic issues? Early childhood trauma? Brain chemical changes during adolescence? Long-term exposure to violence in video games and other entertainment? There's probably twenty more that I could list... And the truth is nobody really knows. If we did, psychiatrists and sociologists would all be looking for other lines of work because we wouldn't need 'em any longer. Chances are it's a combination of factors that combine in just the right (or wrong) order and create some very messed up people. Plenty of doctors and criminologists spend entire careers putting these pieces together hoping to find some commonality. It'd be nice if they could, but I don't think we'll ever fully grasp why it happens because in truth, it doesn't happen all that often.
    Last edited by TX expat; December 25th, 2012 at 11:31 PM.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree with you Moreland
    I would rather live my life as if there is a God,
    And die to find out there isn't, than live my life
    As if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
    God Bless

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    It's not all about the religion it's also about the legislatures that pass laws that do nothing just to say they reselling a cause it's about giving the real rights to the second amendment carry gun I to bars, schools and no gun buster signs
    I would rather live my life as if there is a God,
    And die to find out there isn't, than live my life
    As if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
    God Bless

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array mwhartman's Avatar
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    I would loved to have seen the faces of the members of the House committee after he read the poem!
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    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144

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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    I disagree, for the simple reason that disallowing free expression of a student's faith is a violation of a basic right that is recognized by our constitution.
    It's not a matter of disallowing, but rather being sanctioned by the school. Religion isn't banned from schools, it just isn't taught in schools. As another poster mentioned, it is not the job of any teacher or school official to lead anyone in religion. Prayers aren't held as part of the school day. Schools do not stop students from practicing their religion. When I was in high school, there was a group of us that prayed together every morning before first period. We were able to practice our religion, but at the same time it wasn't sanctioned by the school, and it wasn't an issue.

    The father mentioned in the article thinks that God needs to be put back in schools. As I, and I believe somebody else mentioned, religion can lend itself to morality, (or ethics...), but practicing religion does not equal morality (or ethics...). People can practice their religion all their life, be involved in their church, pray before they eat at school, etc., and still do evil things. Religion is not the answer in the same way that added gun control is not the answer.
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  9. #23
    Member Array jeepzilla's Avatar
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    I submit that religion IS the answer. Pittypat opines that "people can practice their religion...and still do evil things". That is certainly so but those who "act religiously" and then do evil, are not religious. Being religious requires that one live one's life according to one's religious teachings. Such a life could not be or do evil.

  10. #24
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    I have mixed emotions on this issue, perhaps I feel the reasoning from both sides of the fence and have come to the conclusion that God is inside of schools. How can we as a people "force" Him out if he is everywhere always? Until I came to that realization, the notion that God has been kicked out of places did not sound rather foolish. Are we that powerful that our Creator will simply just abandon places that may not be very inclusive of him?

    I belong to the Episcopalian denomination of Christianity. I have been chided by others that we don't use the "Bible" and that our Book of Common Prayer is blasphemous. And don't even get me started because we have the audacity to use real wine in our Communion service. If I remember correctly, we did have prayer in our school, led by a teacher just before class. That was in the 1960's however and I don't remember the denomination that they belonged to, but it was a prayer. Some of the kids participated, others did not. We were not forced to pray, but it did have that connotation.

    We also had some kids who's parents were Jehova's Witnessess who did not allow their kids to participate in some of the "celebrations" such as Halloween. They were taken out of class for things like that. I did not understand it at the time, but that was their belief and faith and in order to exercise it, they had to take the kids away from things like that.

    So, what do we put into the schools for prayer? Would people be willing to allow a Priest from the Episcopal church to lead a Holy Eucharist from the Book of Common Prayer? How about a Roman Catholic Mass? Should the Baptists be required to take that sip of wine even when they feel that grape juice is more acceptable for Communion? How about the influx of Muslims adhering to the tennants of their faith? How about those who simply do not have a religious faith?

    I believe we all have the right to freely exercise our religion but not force it on to anyone and the Government has no right to deny me the ability to exercise that right. I think someone said it best that it should be up to us of faith to teach our children about it and not allow someone else to do it for us.
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  11. #25
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    So, he had the opportunity to speak before Congress and the best he can do is to whine that there's no school prayer?

    Perhaps he is ignorant of the school shooting and Heath High School in Kentucky where the active shooter specifically targeted the very public student prayer circle.http://articles.cnn.com/keyword/heath-high-school
    You live in a fantasy world if you think your prayers will save you

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeepzilla View Post
    I submit that religion IS the answer. Pittypat opines that "people can practice their religion...and still do evil things". That is certainly so but those who "act religiously" and then do evil, are not religious. Being religious requires that one live one's life according to one's religious teachings. Such a life could not be or do evil.
    And I agree that if one makes that choice, then they wouldn't do evil things, however that's also a fairly unrealistic way to judge the problem. First off, there are two basic categories that these people fall into. They are either doing what they do by choice or they are mentally incapable of that choice.

    Let's tackle the easy one first; the mentally ill. They don't get a "choice" whether or not to be sick, any more than a cancer victim, or anyone else, who has suffered any sort of health malady. They are what they are. Religion isn't going to do a thing for them one way or the other. I realize that some folks believe that it can cure all, but in truth, it just doesn't work that way. I don't understand it and I don't try because I'm not an omnipotent deity, I'm just a human and humans aren't perfect, and we don't have all the answers. Bottom line is, nothing is going to "cure" them. Not religion, not science, not anything. The best we may get is something that keeps the demons at bay, but even that is a stretch in some cases. Maybe some day we'll have more answers, but that's not what we have right now...

    Now the harder group, those who "choose" their actions. I'm not even going to get into all the "reasons" or excuses this group has because they are as varied as the criminal population. For them, I am just going to say that they know right from wrong and they choose wrong. Right off the bat, how do you think religion is going to help someone who knows right from wrong and still goes down the wrong path? It's free will. Sure you can argue that if they lived their life in a "Godly" manner and lived by the tenets of their faith that they wouldn't commit crime, so what? They've already made that choice and chosen to do evil things. For the populous that has free will, as long as they have the opportunity to seek out and/or practice their religious beliefs, you can't blame religion, or lack of it, for their actions. That would be like saying that if people would just follow the posted speed limits they wouldn't speed. Yeah, ok, what's your point? It's kind of an obvious statement that has no purpose. Some people follow speed limits, some do not. Sure I totally agree that if everyone would pick a religion that focuses on respecting yourself and those around you, and do no harm and all that stuff, and actually live by the teachings we'd all be better off. But that's free will; people don't have to choose that mentality. Some people actually want to be the predator. Heck, free will is basically the reason we have so many religions in the first place. If God wanted us to just believe in him the way he is, he'd just have us be that way. Period. End of story. Obviously, that's not the way it is, so take that for what it's worth. For whatever reason, we choose our beliefs and subsequently our actions. If that's the case, then religion isn't going to do anything for this group unless/until they want it to. When they want to change their life, religion could easily be a cornerstone for their new life but it's still free will that gets them there, not the other way around.
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  13. #27
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    Implicit in this whole discussion is the impression that things are getting worse in our society and our schools. It sure seems that way, with help from the news media, and what appears to be a natural human tendency to focus on the negative. However, by pretty much every measure of well-being, things are continuously improving for the US and for most other countries (with exceptions like Zimbabwe), and this has been the case for hundreds of years.

    Edit: Sample overview here

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximpactguns View Post
    Separation of Church & State is one of the most important parts....

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Thomas Jefferson
    It always amazes me that the people that are always pushing to ban religion from government don't get it. As noted above the constitution reads "Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which means that government CANNOT prohibit displaying a religious display in a public place. The whole concept of seperation of church and state stems from the above quoted letter from Thomas Jefferson and does NOT appear in the constitution! It does however show that Jefferson and many of the other framers of the constitution wanted to prevent the government from regulating religion in any way, either by endorsing a "State" religion which they had under English rule, or restricting freedom to chose your own belief system.
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    CANNOT prohibit displaying a religious display in a public place
    Right, but government funding of such a display is generally considered to fall foul of the establishment clause. IE if a local group funds, sets up, and maintains a nativity display at a town building or square, OK, as long as they are not privileged over other groups. If the town funds it, sets it up, etc, that's a no-no.

  16. #30
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximpactguns View Post
    I've been holding my tongue on this for a minute or two but now I have to say something. Christianity is no worse off than Islam. Both of your religions are filled with bloodshed and brutality. Salem Witch Trials, Crusades, all death to mass amounts of innocent people in the name of God. I hate religion to be honest and have always and only had myself in hard times. I've kept to morals of responsibility and have utmost respect for most individuals. Hell I even volunteer for Habitat for Humanity which is a Christian based company because I like helping people. Separation of Church & State is one of the most important parts....

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Thomas Jefferson

    You cannot honestly tell me, by this kid having Jesus or God in his life would have made a difference
    . He was having issues to begin with. It's like sending a homosexual to a Christian camp to wash the "gayness" out of him or her. It just doesn't work that way. The BTK serial killer from Kansas was a Church going individual and a huge part of his community. Yet behind closed doors was a sadistic psychotic nut job. Look at all the Boyscouts of America leaders under fire because of child molestation! Where do they usually have meetings and what religion do they involve themselves with.... Christianity. How can you explain that? And Brocktice has the right thinking about Morals do NOT have to be religious in nature. I just have compassion for most people especially those who need a leg up. I'll keep my guns & constitution because thats as much freedom as I need and want. Not trying to offend you at all man I'm just saying you have to think from a different perspective. I've been making this argument with my family for years now who are EXTREMELY Christian. I can never get an honest answer from them on it at all.
    First, the Jefferson quote says it all.....the government should make no law restricting the free expression of religion. As to the last part of the bolded text. Yes, I can honestly tell you that having God in that young man's life could have made a huge difference. Whether you believe in God or not, is not the issue. But, to a believer, their faith can make all the difference in the world. Are there examples of self-proclaimed religious people doing horrible things? OF COURSE. I would submit that those folks are NOT true believers. Also, we can argue school prayer, religious vs non-religious, but the fact is our societies' values have eroded. MOST religions teach kindness, love and self-accountability. Those values are a thing of the past in many segments of American society. So IMO, this Columbine father is right on. We have steered ourselves away from God. That is never going to work out well.

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