Columbine Dad speaks out

This is a discussion on Columbine Dad speaks out within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TX expat And I agree that if one makes that choice, then they wouldn't do evil things, however that's also a fairly ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    And I agree that if one makes that choice, then they wouldn't do evil things, however that's also a fairly unrealistic way to judge the problem. First off, there are two basic categories that these people fall into. They are either doing what they do by choice or they are mentally incapable of that choice.

    Let's tackle the easy one first; the mentally ill. They don't get a "choice" whether or not to be sick, any more than a cancer victim, or anyone else, who has suffered any sort of health malady. They are what they are. Religion isn't going to do a thing for them one way or the other. I realize that some folks believe that it can cure all, but in truth, it just doesn't work that way. I don't understand it and I don't try because I'm not an omnipotent deity, I'm just a human and humans aren't perfect, and we don't have all the answers. Bottom line is, nothing is going to "cure" them. Not religion, not science, not anything. The best we may get is something that keeps the demons at bay, but even that is a stretch in some cases. Maybe some day we'll have more answers, but that's not what we have right now...

    Now the harder group, those who "choose" their actions. I'm not even going to get into all the "reasons" or excuses this group has because they are as varied as the criminal population. For them, I am just going to say that they know right from wrong and they choose wrong. Right off the bat, how do you think religion is going to help someone who knows right from wrong and still goes down the wrong path? It's free will. Sure you can argue that if they lived their life in a "Godly" manner and lived by the tenets of their faith that they wouldn't commit crime, so what? They've already made that choice and chosen to do evil things. For the populous that has free will, as long as they have the opportunity to seek out and/or practice their religious beliefs, you can't blame religion, or lack of it, for their actions. That would be like saying that if people would just follow the posted speed limits they wouldn't speed. Yeah, ok, what's your point? It's kind of an obvious statement that has no purpose. Some people follow speed limits, some do not. Sure I totally agree that if everyone would pick a religion that focuses on respecting yourself and those around you, and do no harm and all that stuff, and actually live by the teachings we'd all be better off. But that's free will; people don't have to choose that mentality. Some people actually want to be the predator. Heck, free will is basically the reason we have so many religions in the first place. If God wanted us to just believe in him the way he is, he'd just have us be that way. Period. End of story. Obviously, that's not the way it is, so take that for what it's worth. For whatever reason, we choose our beliefs and subsequently our actions. If that's the case, then religion isn't going to do anything for this group unless/until they want it to. When they want to change their life, religion could easily be a cornerstone for their new life but it's still free will that gets them there, not the other way around.
    In the bolded text...HUH?!?!?! The point is that if people were raised in a home filled with faith and a love of God, they may be LESS likely to make wrong choices. Faith in God, like many things, is a practiced behavior. If a child is raised in an environment where God is mocked, or ignored, they have no reason to aspire to living a more Godly existence. Their choices will not be made with God in mind. Right or Wrong? Just because you know the difference doesn't mean you will always make the right choice. Good vs Evil. IMO it's real, and Evil can and does take hold when people wander about aimlessly without faith.

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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    Pretend there are no religions, no gods, and no laws that prevent you from killing. Would you behave any differently with regard to killing than you do now? Why or why not?

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    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Columbine Dad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    Pretend there are no religions, no gods, and no laws that prevent you from killing. Would you behave any differently with regard to killing than you do now? Why or why not?
    Very interesting question. I believe any answer is suspect because its impossible to pretend that mores and beliefs founded and based within the constructs of our upbringing based on God, laws and religion dont exist. BUT, that stated, i'll answer to the best of my ability. I think if there were no laws then society would be more about survival due to the inherent evil in mans nature. So yes i would feel and act differently. I would kill to ensure my survival.
    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
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  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    Let me just cut to the chase. There are a number of psychological exercises including and similar to the trolley problem.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

    Basically, these exercises examine the subject's intuitive ethical sense in a way that is not related to morality. They can be fiendishly complex. For example: a runaway train is headed down the track. You have control of a switch. Currently, the train is heading toward a mother pushing her infant child in a stroller. If you flip the switch, it will instead hit five single, adult men. Do you flip the switch? What if the train is originally headed for the five men? Do you flip the switch? What if they are convicted petty criminals? Convicted murders? What if it were one innocent man instead of five? An 85 year-old man, specifically. What if it's one innocent man on one side and two petty thieves on the other? How would you feel about someone else who chose to flip the switch, or not, in each situation? I think you'll find thinking about these questions that you have an inherent ethical sense unrelated to religion or morality. Pay attention to your reasons for your answer in each case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    In the bolded text...HUH?!?!?! The point is that if people were raised in a home filled with faith and a love of God, they may be LESS likely to make wrong choices. Faith in God, like many things, is a practiced behavior. If a child is raised in an environment where God is mocked, or ignored, they have no reason to aspire to living a more Godly existence. Their choices will not be made with God in mind. Right or Wrong? Just because you know the difference doesn't mean you will always make the right choice. Good vs Evil. IMO it's real, and Evil can and does take hold when people wander about aimlessly without faith.
    Ok, but so what? Plenty of people are raised just the way you describe and they still turn down the wrong path in life and end up criminals. Plenty of people are raised without God, or choose a faithless life later, and live a very moral life.

    My point is that there are no blanket statements like "this is what happens when you take God out of schools" because it's just not accurate. Would a more faith based upbringing benefit some? Sure. Would it help some stay a virtuous course? Sure. Is it a guarantee? Nope.

    Not to mention that religion isn't actually a solution unless you can find a way to force people to believe something. If they don't want it on their own, it's pretty much out of contention as far as causality.

    ***On a side note, thank you moderators for letting this thread stray close to the line. Everyone's been respectful but I appreciate you folks letting this one hang around.
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  7. #36
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Columbine Dad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Ok, but so what? Plenty of people are raised just the way you describe and they still turn down the wrong path in life and end up criminals. Plenty of people are raised without God, or choose a faithless life later, and live a very moral life.

    My point is that there are no blanket statements like "this is what happens when you take God out of schools" because it's just not accurate. Would a more faith based upbringing benefit some? Sure. Would it help some stay a virtuous course? Sure. Is it a guarantee? Nope.

    Not to mention that religion isn't actually a solution unless you can find a way to force people to believe something. If they don't want it on their own, it's pretty much out of contention as far as causality.

    ***On a side note, thank you moderators for letting this thread stray close to the line. Everyone's been respectful but I appreciate you folks letting this one hang around.
    Just because there are examples of the religious who have strayed or the non-religious who haven't doesn't mean his statement is not valid. He's making a general statement about American society. Of course there are no guarantees in this life. Just because there are no guarantees does not make religion pointless. It also does NOT rule out a lack of God as a cause to this epidemic. You don't have to force religion on anyone. Parents training their child in their selected faith often results in children and adults who grow to have similar beliefs. It's my opinion that the country would benefit from a closer relationship with God. If that is a blanket statement, so be it. It certainly IMO Has more to do with what causes these shootings then does the types of guns that are currently legal.
    "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    Just because there are examples of the religious who have strayed or the non-religious who haven't doesn't mean his statement is not valid. He's making a general statement about American society. Of course there are no guarantees in this life. Just because there are no guarantees does not make religion pointless. It also does NOT rule out a lack of God as a cause to this epidemic. You don't have to force religion on anyone. Parents training their child in their selected faith often results in children and adults who grow to have similar beliefs. It's my opinion that the country would benefit from a closer relationship with God. If that is a blanket statement, so be it. It certainly IMO Has more to do with what causes these shootings then does the types of guns that are currently legal.
    I totally agree with the vast majority of your post. I've never said (and it wasn't my intention to imply) that religion was pointless. Man has had religion basically as long as we've had man, so I wouldn't consider it pointless at all. I also agree that true faith can help keep a person heading down a virtuous path. My only point is that by its very nature, it can't do anything for anyone unless that person wants it to. That's all I am trying to get across, because blaming lack of religion in schools is about as pointless as blaming the gun. It's like saying that the world would be a better place if everyone had red hair. It's not and it's not, therefore thinking about it on any sort of global scale is pretty much useless. I can't make anyone have, or exhibit, true faith. That's between them and whatever higher power they believe in. I'd prefer to focus on the things that have some sort of quantifiable measure, because blaming a lack of religion is just too much like picking the "easy" non-answer and calling it done. We're not going to learn anything or make any sort of measurable progress identifying controllable causes if we just blame it on a lack of God.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    I totally agree with the vast majority of your post. I've never said (and it wasn't my intention to imply) that religion was pointless. Man has had religion basically as long as we've had man, so I wouldn't consider it pointless at all. I also agree that true faith can help keep a person heading down a virtuous path. My only point is that by its very nature, it can't do anything for anyone unless that person wants it to. That's all I am trying to get across, because blaming lack of religion in schools is about as pointless as blaming the gun. It's like saying that the world would be a better place if everyone had red hair. It's not and it's not, therefore thinking about it on any sort of global scale is pretty much useless. I can't make anyone have, or exhibit, true faith. That's between them and whatever higher power they believe in. I'd prefer to focus on the things that have some sort of quantifiable measure, because blaming a lack of religion is just too much like picking the "easy" non-answer and calling it done. We're not going to learn anything or make any sort of measurable progress identifying controllable causes if we just blame it on a lack of God.
    Let's talk about your post, specifically the bolded excerpts. The first one is so obvious, at least to me, that I hesitate to mention it. Physical characteristics such as hair color have absolutely nothing to do with his/her moral compass or how a person acts, whereas religious teachings (at least in the Christian faith; I can't speak for other world religions) speak directly to issues of moral character and behavior (I know, I know, but remember I did say it was obvious).

    As to the second bolded part of your post, there really is no way to focus only on quantifiable things because many factors that influence a person to act violently are simply not quantifiable. However, that does not mean that these things have no influence for good or for ill. Therefore, since we cannot quantify everything, it makes sense to consider some things that may not be quantifiable but may still have an impact, such as religious and moral upbringing and the ability to freely exercise your beliefs without fear of Government restriction.

    Having said that, I am not saying that religion is the only answer. Obviously it is not. But I believe it's a huge mistake to exclude it as part of an overall strategy, if you will, for dealing with the violence which has become so pervasive in our society.

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    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    WHile on this subject, am I the only person who is upset that Christmas is a Federal Holiday and other religious holidays such as Ramadan, Hannukah, Dasara, and the holy days of other religions are not? I am not a Christian and it is ridiculous that companies are forced to pay overtime or close or respect this holiday over others. I am sorry but I get riled up about it. Either we honor them all or we don't honor any of them.

    As far as prayer in schools, the kids can do it on their own. We don't need an official moment of silence or moment of prayer. If the magic Skygod of some silly cult gets offended because I don't want a school sanctioned Bible or Torah study or moment for their invisible supreme being that is not my problem. I do not have a problem with kids or faculty praying, I have a problem with the school sanctioning it. They can do it on their break or lunch or whenever but not on my time. I pay for the schools with my taxes and I don't want to pay teachers to pray.

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    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRick View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Scott. God needs to be brought back into our schools. However, since his words were not of condemnation of evil guns I'm sure that they fell on deaf ears.
    Which God? Many of the Christians I know raise hell if we don't put Jesus and their God first. How about you send your kids to a religious school if you want them to pray in school? I know many can't afford it, but it is not my problem they suck at life.
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    I've got no problem with God in schools or anywhere else for that matter. Just don't let it run around unsupervised.

    ...
    The problem with the world is grown-ups behaving like unsupervised children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    WHile on this subject, am I the only person who is upset that Christmas is a Federal Holiday and other religious holidays such as Ramadan, Hannukah, Dasara, and the holy days of other religions are not? I am not a Christian and it is ridiculous that companies are forced to pay overtime or close or respect this holiday over others. I am sorry but I get riled up about it. Either we honor them all or we don't honor any of them.

    As far as prayer in schools, the kids can do it on their own. We don't need an official moment of silence or moment of prayer. If the magic Skygod of some silly cult gets offended because I don't want a school sanctioned Bible or Torah study or moment for their invisible supreme being that is not my problem. I do not have a problem with kids or faculty praying, I have a problem with the school sanctioning it. They can do it on their break or lunch or whenever but not on my time. I pay for the schools with my taxes and I don't want to pay teachers to pray.
    This is such a common and wrong-headed argument. Nobody is asking you to pay teachers to pray. The government should not put in laws to stop people from exercising their religion. That's what happens. They outlaw prayers at football games, or during school. If you don't have a problem with kids or faculty praying then.....what's the problem???? Nobody should be forced to pray, and nobody should be forced not to. As for your Christmas rant.....This country is steeped in Christianity. So our traditions reflect that. Nobody forces companies to close or pay overtime. Those are company practices either negotiated or not. Relax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeepzilla View Post
    I submit that religion IS the answer. Pittypat opines that "people can practice their religion...and still do evil things". That is certainly so but those who "act religiously" and then do evil, are not religious. Being religious requires that one live one's life according to one's religious teachings. Such a life could not be or do evil.
    And...?

    If we know that one can follow a religion and still do evil things, then what will putting religion in schools do? Nothing. In the same way that a child growing up in a religious home can do evil, so can a child growing up in a school system that teaches religion. It is not a solution.
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    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Which God? Many of the Christians I know raise hell if we don't put Jesus and their God first. How about you send your kids to a religious school if you want them to pray in school? I know many can't afford it, but it is not my problem they suck at life.
    This post to me personifies the attitude that the Columbine father was addressing. No offense to you sir, but you seem almost angry at the very mention that God be allowed in schools. Suck at life? wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    And...?

    If we know that one can follow a religion and still do evil things, then what will putting religion in schools do? Nothing. In the same way that a child growing up in a religious home can do evil, so can a child growing up in a school system that teaches religion. It is not a solution.
    So if someone can grow up in a religious home and do evil, religion is not a solution? People die in cars so we shouldn't drive. Guns are used in murder we shouldn't own them. Alcohol can be abused, make it illegal. Basically you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because religion doesn't make everyone a saint does NOT mean it has no merit, and cannot be part of fixing our societies' woes.

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