Columbine Dad speaks out

This is a discussion on Columbine Dad speaks out within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; With Christmas just hours away, and everyone pointing blame on each other for all the shootings I thought this article hit the mark, pointing blame ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    Columbine Dad speaks out

    With Christmas just hours away, and everyone pointing blame on each other for all the shootings I thought this article hit the mark, pointing blame where the blame should be pointed. In lieu of all the talk of new gun legislation, and more shootings today, a father of a victim in the shooting in Columbine speaks out and puts the blame on the separation of church and state. I agree with his viewpoint and I feel many on this forum would agree. Its not the NRAs fault that people kill using guns, those same individuals that plot to do that evil would find some other means to accomplish their goal, using poison, gases, bombs, or fires. What is your belief?
    COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER !! | In El Dorado County
    I would rather live my life as if there is a God,
    And die to find out there isn't, than live my life
    As if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
    God Bless

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  3. #2
    Member Array RmScadd's Avatar
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    WOW! Good words and right on target. Evil DOES exist and until we acknowledge it we will be helpless to stop it.
    NRA Life member
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    A muscle not exercised will eventually atrophy.
    A right not exercised will eventually be taken away!

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    Ex Member Array Mr B's Avatar
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    Very well said.

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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    I agree, but to an extent. I disagree that religion has anything to do with it. The issue lies in morality. While it's true that religion often lends itself to a persons morality (religion come with a certain moral code that should be adhered to), it is not necessarily the answer, nor is it fool-proof. For one reason, there are many different religions, and suggesting to put one religion's supreme being "in schools" is not a good idea. For another reason, there are many people who claim to follow a specific religion, but their daily lives and actions show the opposite. Despite their upbringing, they can still prove to be immoral people. Many people simply go through the motions without actually following their religion.

    Morality, whether through religion or not, is at the heart of the issue. Religion is something that should be instilled by an individuals parents in the home.
    AK_Brian, Timkid, OldVet and 4 others like this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    I agree, but to an extent. I disagree that religion has anything to do with it. The issue lies in morality. While it's true that religion often lends itself to a persons morality (religion come with a certain moral code that should be adhered to), it is not necessarily the answer, nor is it fool-proof. For one reason, there are many different religions, and suggesting to put one religion's supreme being "in schools" is not a good idea. For another reason, there are many people who claim to follow a specific religion, but their daily lives and actions show the opposite. Despite their upbringing, they can still prove to be immoral people. Many people simply go through the motions without actually following their religion.

    Morality, whether through religion or not, is at the heart of the issue. Religion is something that should be instilled by an individuals parents in the home.
    Nobody is telling the kids how to pray or what God to pray to. The simple point is that they should be allowed to pray at all, to whatever God they choose. A simple moment of silence during which individual students can pray (or not pray, if that is their choice) does no harm to anyone, and allows students to remain connected to their faith, even during school hours. It's not just a matter of "religion" only being allowed at home. A Christian is a Christian wherever he/she is, not just at home. Same with any other faiths.

    None of this is a violation of the separation clause, which was simply to prohibit the Government from establishing a single "religion" as the only accepted state sponsored religion. The purpose of the separation clause is to recognize that American citizens have the right to practice and express their faith in whatever manner he/she sees fit, without Government interference. It has since, however, been twisted to disallow any expression of faith in a public (read Government) venue. It's a real shame, and a violation of our rights as citizens. As to whether allowing individual expressions of faith would have a positive impact on people's actions, that can be debated. I personally believe it would.

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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    Nobody is telling the kids how to pray or what God to pray to. The simple point is that they should be allowed to pray at all, to whatever God they choose. A simple moment of silence during which individual students can pray (or not pray, if that is their choice) does no harm to anyone, and allows students to remain connected to their faith, even during school hours. It's not just a matter of "religion" only being allowed at home. A Christian is a Christian wherever he/she is, not just at home. Same with any other faiths.

    None of this is a violation of the separation clause, which was simply to prohibit the Government from establishing a single "religion" as the only accepted state sponsored religion. The purpose of the separation clause is to recognize that American citizens have the right to practice and express their faith in whatever manner he/she sees fit, without Government interference. It has since, however, been twisted to disallow any expression of faith in a public (read Government) venue. It's a real shame, and a violation of our rights as citizens. As to whether allowing individual expressions of faith would have a positive impact on people's actions, that can be debated. I personally believe it would.
    And what's stopping these students from taking their own few minutes before the start of a class or while they're running laps in gym to say their little prayer? It doesn't need to be a school-sanctioned 5 minutes. Nobody expects anyone to "leave their faith at home", but there's no need for religion to be a daily part of a school's schedule.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    And what's stopping these students from taking their own few minutes before the start of a class or while they're running laps in gym to say their little prayer? It doesn't need to be a school-sanctioned 5 minutes. Nobody expects anyone to "leave their faith at home", but there's no need for religion to be a daily part of a school's schedule.
    I disagree, for the simple reason that disallowing free expression of a student's faith is a violation of a basic right that is recognized by our constitution. You want to ask why we should allow it. I ask why we shouldn't. And The constitutional answer is that it should not, and indeed legally cannot be disallowed under the separation clause, which as I stated, has as its purpose, not the forbidding of any open expression of faith as related to the state but rather the recognition of our right to religious freedom, and that the state cannot form and enforce a single accepted way to express that freedom.

    We talk here on DC about our 2A right and how we want to preserve it and how it is protected under our constitution. Why would we not want to preserve ALL of our rights, including the right to express our religious faith, whether at home or at school? Are you only for 2A rights or are you for all rights afforded to American citizens?

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    Member Array 91wm6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    I agree, but to an extent. I disagree that religion has anything to do with it. The issue lies in morality. While it's true that religion often lends itself to a persons morality (religion come with a certain moral code that should be adhered to), it is not necessarily the answer, nor is it fool-proof. For one reason, there are many different religions, and suggesting to put one religion's supreme being "in schools" is not a good idea. For another reason, there are many people who claim to follow a specific religion, but their daily lives and actions show the opposite. Despite their upbringing, they can still prove to be immoral people. Many people simply go through the motions without actually following their religion.

    Morality, whether through religion or not, is at the heart of the issue. Religion is something that should be instilled by an individuals parents in the home.
    All students should be free to worship the God they believe in at school.

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    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by 91wm6 View Post
    All students should be free to worship the God they believe in at school.
    And they are. What is not permitted is for government employees (teachers and administrators) to impose any religious practices or teachings upon the students. That people of some religions seem to want to allow their religion to be imposed at school, and then complain that religion is missing or not allowed from schools, that their religion is being imposed upon is, to me, baffling. I would think they'd want themselves and their religious communities to be the source of religious influence in their children's lives, not some teachers that may not share their religion at all.

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    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Morality, whether through religion or not, is at the heart of the issue. Religion is something that should be instilled by an individuals parents in the home.
    I would go a step farther and say that ethics, not morals, are the right place to look. One man's morals may be another man's sins or vices.

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    Member Array shadow247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I would go a step farther and say that ethics, not morals, are the right place to look. One man's morals may be another man's sins or vices.
    Absolutely. Many crimes have been committed in the name of religion. My wife tells me stories all the time of supposedly "religious" people she works with cheating on their husbands/wives, and doing other amoral things.

    I stand by the non-aggression principal. Everything else flows from that. Thou shalt not kill is the highest commandment, and should be first among those held in high regard, yet many churches praise our service-members for killing innocent men, women, and children overseas. My wife works directly with service members, taking care of their children, and after the stories she has told me, I have little faith in our armed men and women.

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    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow247 View Post
    Absolutely. Many crimes have been committed in the name of religion.
    Well, lest anyone accuse me of religion-bashing, I am referring to morals in general, and not all morals are religious in nature or origin.

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    Member Array Maximpactguns's Avatar
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    I've been holding my tongue on this for a minute or two but now I have to say something. Christianity is no worse off than Islam. Both of your religions are filled with bloodshed and brutality. Salem Witch Trials, Crusades, all death to mass amounts of innocent people in the name of God. I hate religion to be honest and have always and only had myself in hard times. I've kept to morals of responsibility and have utmost respect for most individuals. Hell I even volunteer for Habitat for Humanity which is a Christian based company because I like helping people. Separation of Church & State is one of the most important parts....

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Thomas Jefferson

    You cannot honestly tell me, by this kid having Jesus or God in his life would have made a difference. He was having issues to begin with. It's like sending a homosexual to a Christian camp to wash the "gayness" out of him or her. It just doesn't work that way. The BTK serial killer from Kansas was a Church going individual and a huge part of his community. Yet behind closed doors was a sadistic psychotic nut job. Look at all the Boyscouts of America leaders under fire because of child molestation! Where do they usually have meetings and what religion do they involve themselves with.... Christianity. How can you explain that? And Brocktice has the right thinking about Morals do NOT have to be religious in nature. I just have compassion for most people especially those who need a leg up. I'll keep my guns & constitution because thats as much freedom as I need and want. Not trying to offend you at all man I'm just saying you have to think from a different perspective. I've been making this argument with my family for years now who are EXTREMELY Christian. I can never get an honest answer from them on it at all.
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    Member Array chiefs-special-guy's Avatar
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    I am a Catholic Christian, first and foremost. It supersedes the US Constitution, America, and everything else. Sorry, but my first allegiance is to Christ. The teachers at my childrens' schools are mostly very decent people. and I like and respect them. But they are not qualified to lead or instruct my kids in religious matters. That is not their job. I worry that many people where I live- in Alabama- have no understanding of my faith. Faith is too important to have the state touch it. Countries, even the US, pass away. Christ does not. Give to Caesar what he is due, but give to God what He is due. So, despite the fundamental importance I assign to prayer and meditation, I am very leery of having any sort of "religious" practices in public schools. Others may sincerely disagree, and I understand their points of view. But for me, i want the state completely out of my faith.
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    Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..

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    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: Columbine Dad speaks out

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