Hypothetical situation - what would you do?

This is a discussion on Hypothetical situation - what would you do? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CharlesMorri Yeah.. Reasonable man who shoots someone in the back of the head.. Give it a shot and I promise to visit ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    Yeah.. Reasonable man who shoots someone in the back of the head..
    Give it a shot and I promise to visit you in jail! ��
    I think in the situation of a mass murderer in a mall, a shot to the back of the head wouldn't matter. Usually it matters when the assailant has ceased his attack and his running away. But if the threat is ongoing, and you happen to be behind the shooter, I don't think it would matter.

    (Think being the keyword. I'm no lawyer).
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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  3. #62
    Ex Member Array CharlesMorri's Avatar
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    Hypothetical situation - what would you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Actually...




    So atctimmy lines up with Northnick on AK/AR, hood, hockey mask, and MOLLE vest. Where'd he get the description wrong?
    You are correct sir! My dyslexia is showing! Sorry to all involved!
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    Yeah.. Reasonable man who shoots someone in the back of the head..
    Give it a shot and I promise to visit you in jail! ��
    I said I'd shoot him in the back. As in the back of his back.

    I'm not a 12 year old, I understand the severity of my decision. You, nor I, know for sure what the DA or a jury would think after the fact. I think I could easily articulate a defense going by what the OP posted. Would I want to? No, but we all make decisions in life. You will live with yours and I will live (or die) with mine.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    You are correct sir! My dyslexia is showing! Sorry to all involved!
    No harm done!
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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    Hypothetical situation - what would you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I said I'd shoot him in the back. As in the back of his back.

    I'm not a 12 year old, I understand the severity of my decision. You, nor I, know for sure what the DA or a jury would think after the fact. I think I could easily articulate a defense going by what the OP posted. Would I want to? No, but we all make decisions in life. You will live with yours and I will live (or die) with mine.
    And I will still visit you in jail!

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    And I will still visit you in jail!
    Bring me some money for the vending machines.
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    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  8. #67
    Ex Member Array CharlesMorri's Avatar
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    Hypothetical situation - what would you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Bring me some money for the vending machines.
    And a cake with a file in it!👍
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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Again I will point out that planning this is all best guess. Legal or not legal, I absolutely would not shoot this person until I know for sure what he intends to do. He could be some mental patient, or just a weird person dressed that way with a realistic looking relica gun toy gun empty gun etc. Unlikely but possible. As cold as this sounds he would have to begin the act I feared he intended to do. And that is the trickiest part to me. Will I have to actually either have him see me raise the weapon toward me which gives me no choice? Will I be able to tell before he actually fires the first round if indeed he is seriously what I think he is?
    That is what I meant by being able to adapt. Killing an idiot because he thought it would be funny to scare a mall full of people with a empty gun is a big no no. Not likely but not impossible. Only being there seeing things transpire to the point you know for sure action has to be taken will you know.
    I have no desire to kill an innocent numbskull any more than I do to see several innocents gunned down by a mad man.
    It could as horrible as this sounds come down to seeing him actually fire the first shot and hope its a miss. It could not all depends on unknowns that would only unfold in that situation to make a decision by.
    Standing by however and watching or running as innocents are gunned down? Call the pros who will show up in minutes instead of seconds, assess surround plan gather forces all while innocent men women and kids are being slaughtered? Sorry but in a halfway decent position to put an end to it and survive I gotta try. Sorry if it rubs the wrong way.
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  10. #69
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Will I have to actually either have him see me raise the weapon toward me which gives me no choice? Will I be able to tell before he actually fires the first round if indeed he is seriously what I think he is?
    Honestly, seeing him raise the weapon would be enough for me. Hopefully I can have my sights on him before he pulls the trigger. If the gun is empty, or fake, that's his problem. But at the point that I see someone dressed the way described, and raising a weapon at innocent people, I would reasonably fear that the lives of myself and others are in danger.
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    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Honestly, seeing him raise the weapon would be enough for me. Hopefully I can have my sights on him before he pulls the trigger. If the gun is empty, or fake, that's his problem. But at the point that I see someone dressed the way described, and raising a weapon at innocent people, I would reasonably fear that the lives of myself and others are in danger.
    That likely would be enough for me too sir. I honestly could not make that call until faced with the actual situation though at that point it would be reasonable to believe that was the case. Also thank you for your service.
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    Well, in OH we have a DUTY to retreat. That takes the guess work out of it if you are in OH. The law wants you to call the cops and bug out. We also have a legal ability to use deadly force to protect others, but in the OP, the situation is in the scary but not yet at the fear of death/GBH stage - close, but not there yet.

    I guess I would do my duty and bug out.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    In THIS thread we are talking about a guy in a molle vest wearing a hockey mask with a hood up and armed with an AK/AR while walking through Macy's. This is not an ambiguous situation, it is quite clear that this is a killer on his way to do murder. If you don't agree then I question your judgement.
    Until the guy starts shooting at people, there is still ambiguity. He could just be somebody in costume with bad judgement. He could be an open-carrier with bad judgement. He could be an undercover cop. His presence definitely warrants a MWAG call, and there's nothing illegal about following him. I recognize that state laws may vary somewhat on the appropriate use of deadly force. It's definitely a judgement call as to what you would do in such a situation, which I presume is why the OP posed the question. Personally, I wouldn't shoot a guy just for carrying a gun and looking suspicious.
    “Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” - Benjamin Franklin

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    First off I'd like to thank the OP for posing the question, and facilitating the debate. "What if" situations allow us all to think through our own plans of action, and as I've said many times on here, a plan formed ahead of time, is much better than having to think of a plan once the action starts. Action is always faster then reaction.

    I'm with the crowd that would take action, to prevent innocents being slaughtered. I won't criticize those that choose to flee, as that is their personal decision, based on their own moral code, and training or lack of same. I am a retired Federal LEO, so how I would handle this situation is perhaps different than the majority of ya'll.

    Here's how I would handle this incident: If I were at a mall (which I don't do either BTW) with family, I'd send them in the opposite direction, with instructions to meet at the truck. I'd then dial 911, advising the dispatch of the MWG, location, direction of travel, and clothing description. I would also advise dispatch of my description, and my intentions.

    I would then close with the subject, and from behind cover (not concealment), and with a good sight picture, I'd order the MWG to "STOP AND Do NOT MOVE! His actions from that moment on would determine whether he left in a body bag, or in handcuffs. Should he be an undercover officer (highly unlikely given the scenario posed by the OP) he would follow my instructions. I would instruct him to place the gun on the ground, take two steps away, and get on the ground, with his hands palms up, away from his body.

    If he was a BG with evil intentions, he might try to turn and fire, but action is faster than reaction, and he'd lose, even with the long gun in his hand.

    If the MWG complies with my instructions, he'd be proned out (as described), and held for the first responders. As soon as he'd dropped the weapon, and it was out of his reach, I'd reholster my firearm, out of his view, and keep him on the ground with my command presence alone. This will hopefully prevent a blue on blue incident when the first responder arrive.

    My hope and prayer is that he complies with my forceful instructions, and that the incident ends without gunfire. But that is a decision he'll have to make, and live or die with.

    Remember, action beats reaction every time. Have a plan and practice your "when/then" thinking. Ya'll be safe.
    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBSR View Post
    As soon as he'd dropped the weapon, and it was out of his reach, I'd reholster my firearm, out of his view, and keep him on the ground with my command presence alone.
    This is probably the only thing I would do different. As you said, action is faster than reaction. If he decided to do something stupid (likely, since he's already proven himself stupid) I would want my firearm out and at the ready. I would avoid a blue on blue shooting by rephoning police if necessary (if I didn't still have them on the line) and inform them that the assailant was on the ground and I had him at gun point, so they would know that I wasn't their target.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBSR View Post
    First off I'd like to thank the OP for posing the question, and facilitating the debate. "What if" situations allow us all to think through our own plans of action, and as I've said many times on here, a plan formed ahead of time, is much better than having to think of a plan once the action starts. Action is always faster then reaction.

    I'm with the crowd that would take action, to prevent innocents being slaughtered. I won't criticize those that choose to flee, as that is their personal decision, based on their own moral code, and training or lack of same. I am a retired Federal LEO, so how I would handle this situation is perhaps different than the majority of ya'll.

    Here's how I would handle this incident: If I were at a mall (which I don't do either BTW) with family, I'd send them in the opposite direction, with instructions to meet at the truck. I'd then dial 911, advising the dispatch of the MWG, location, direction of travel, and clothing description. I would also advise dispatch of my description, and my intentions.

    I would then close with the subject, and from behind cover (not concealment), and with a good sight picture, I'd order the MWG to "STOP AND Do NOT MOVE! His actions from that moment on would determine whether he left in a body bag, or in handcuffs. Should he be an undercover officer (highly unlikely given the scenario posed by the OP) he would follow my instructions. I would instruct him to place the gun on the ground, take two steps away, and get on the ground, with his hands palms up, away from his body.

    If he was a BG with evil intentions, he might try to turn and fire, but action is faster than reaction, and he'd lose, even with the long gun in his hand.

    If the MWG complies with my instructions, he'd be proned out (as described), and held for the first responders. As soon as he'd dropped the weapon, and it was out of his reach, I'd reholster my firearm, out of his view, and keep him on the ground with my command presence alone. This will hopefully prevent a blue on blue incident when the first responder arrive.

    My hope and prayer is that he complies with my forceful instructions, and that the incident ends without gunfire. But that is a decision he'll have to make, and live or die with.

    Remember, action beats reaction every time. Have a plan and practice your "when/then" thinking. Ya'll be safe.
    Command presence???
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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