Employer policy what would you do

This is a discussion on Employer policy what would you do within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; On your job's property or vehicles, you should comply with the management's policy if you are not willing to lose your job over this issue. ...

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Thread: Employer policy what would you do

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    On your job's property or vehicles, you should comply with the management's policy if you are not willing to lose your job over this issue. When all is said and done, private property owners are allowed in most states to prohibit concealed carry on their premises. Only you can make the call as to which is most important. Perhaps consider seeking a job with a more "gun friendly" employer in the meantime.
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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array Grant48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    To approach supervisors or HR may certainly put you in the spotlight. You may find that, yes, you are authorized by law--with a cc permit--to carry at work. Or you may find company policy quickly changed to delete the "except as authorized by law" clause.
    Agreed, don't rock the boat.

  4. #48
    Member Array MrsHB's Avatar
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    Another management perspective from one who's involved in creating and administering such policies:

    1. The "except as allowed by law" is standard wording for nationwide employers. It's to accommodate the parking lot laws some states have (as mentioned by Old Vet). My state has a law that precludes employers from banning firearms kept in locked employee vehicles parked on a company lot... unless the employer provides a secured parking area. Therefore, employees may carry a firearm while inside their locked vehicle on our premises (parking lot)... but the firearm can never exit that vehicle as long as the vehicle is on company property.

    2. Carry permits do not override the property owner's rights. Businesses can choose to ban firearms on their premises, whether carried by patrons and/or employees, except when such bans are precluded by law (such as #1, above).

    3. Willful violation of company policy is not only grounds for immediate termination, it will likely also result in you being ineligible to receive unemployment benefits and will make it hard for you to get hired elsewhere... unless you lie about the reason for termination and the company chooses not to disclose the real reason. Also, a lawyer will not be able to "get you reinstated" afterwards unless the company violated a collective bargaining agreement or a state or federal law by firing you. Employment at will is the law in every state except MT. It means that you can be fired at any time and for any reason other than an illegal reason.

    4. Challenging your boss, or HR, to justify their policy and/or split hairs over the wording simply because you disagree with it, will not be productive and could very well be a career limiting maneuver. I wouldn't recommend doing this. It sounds like they have been VERY clear as to what the company's stance is, and aren't likely to entertain an argument with you over it.

    Having said all that... as a fellow CC-er I certainly empathize with your plight. (Boy, do I ever. If you want some real potential for workplace violence, try being the one who fires people!) You may be able to carry pepper spray or something similar if such does not fall under the employer's definition of "weapon". You could politely express your concerns over the past confrontations and ask them what your options are in that regard. Be prepared to accept their answer, whatever it is.

    If you are seeking an employer who allows CC at work, focus on very small private employers. Large companies must often create very conservative policies because federal discrimination laws don't allow them to pick and choose which individual employees they'll allow to carry and which they won't... and every large company has it's share of hot heads, fools, and people who are little... "off". So, if those folks can't carry a gun at work, no one else can either. Small businesses with less than 15 employees aren't bound by those laws and therefore they have a lot more leeway in making case-by-case decisions.

    I don't carry in the workplace. I wish I could, but I understand why it's not possible. I do have several employees who shoot at the same range as me and who also have their CC permits. It really wouldn't surprise me if they were carrying at work, but I don't ask, and they don't tell.
    I don't go looking for an issue, as long as an issue doesn't arise.
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  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    I have a friend who works delivering home medical supplies. One day he knocked on a door and was met by a large, aggressive K9 and it's owner. He told owner that he couldn't install the oxygen device unless she put the dog in a secure room. The "lady" proceeded to use profane language and verbally attacked him. He replied professionally that he would not take the risk of entering the home with the dog loose and that if she refused to secure the dog he would not be making a delivery there. She again replied with name calling and racial slurs. My friend then excused himself, picked up the O2 tank and proceeded to leave.

    Mike made it to the curb before the female smashed him in the head from behind with a cinder block. He later told me they he didn't go unconscious he simply fell in the gutter, (he is a small guy maybe 130#'s), looking up as the thug lifted the block over her head to crush his skull. Mike said it was almost dreamlike, he realized what was happening, but he was injured to the point that he could not move or even raise his arms to ward off the blow. To hear him talk about knowing he was going to die and not being able to do anything about it was pretty surreal. Luckily some of the female's family members had heard what happened and intervened, grabbing her and holding her down. He went in and out of consciousness after that, spent a week or so in the hospital, experienced seizures and loss of memory, couldn't drive for quite a while.

    It turned out the woman had a history of mental illness, had many run in's with LEO's and had spent time institutionalized. She had decided to go off her meds before this incident and had assaulted a family member earlier that week, but charges had been dropped. Mike has recovered fully and has moved up to a management position with his company since.

    If I was out there visiting strangers homes by myself and was in a position where I had to possibly deliver bad news, I would want to be armed. You need to decide which is more important to you, life or a paycheck. Will the company continue to pay you if you are hurt on the job? I will also add that good jobs are few and far between right now.

  6. #50
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    It seems there is a conflict between company policy and management policy. If there is a corporate headquarters you could request they give a clarification as to which is correct. That being said, don't expect them to rule in your favor as to weapons allowed. As to your personal vehicle being used for company business. Are they paying your gas/insurance/upkeep? If not, they don't have a right to say what you can and can't have in your vehicle.

    Wording in company code of conduct, "Except as allowed by law, no employee shall carry a weapon or firearm on company property including company vehicles"

    During recent meeting going over entire policy member of managament, my manager's boss said that absolutely no weapons or guns are allowed, not shotgun cases in back to go hunting after work hours in company car or personal car used for business purpose.
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  7. #51
    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    Company policy cannot put you in jail.
    Not following your own safety mindedness can put you in the hospital or worse.

    This is a Spartan society, you can do what you want as long as you don't get caught, and if you do be prepared for said consequences, jobs are coming back...more available.

    Do not leave an uncovered gun case or bow case in your trunk exposed. throw a blanket over it....take some time, cover your tracks, and no one will be the wiser and maybe, just maybe you will be safer for it.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    I agree, the code of conduct does not agree with what managment is telling you. If your licensed to carry concealed then unless there is a no gun sign on the door of the building you are as stated in the code of conduct "provided by law" allowed to carry. I don't know if a verbal statement from a manager trumps that or not.
    Sounds to me like your taking a big risk if you decide to carry. Unless your sure you can find another job, or have enough savings to hire a big time lawyer to defend you if they try and fire you I think I would not carry.

    If you want to really go out on a limb ask you boss to talk to legal department as to what is meant by "provided by law" in the code of conduct. Of course that is going to make management start to really take notice of you and may get you labeled as a trouble maker.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVille View Post
    As an individual, this will just bring attention to you. No doubt your boss is a busy (enough) guy - why should he care to make waves for you? Even if you are the best employee he has, he would probably much prefer you just be quiet and not make waves. From my experience, HR types don't have much sense of humor, and tend to be by the book type of folks. If the policy is no weapons, they probably won't care that you have a permit.

    Basically, what everyone else has said is correct. Make your own decision and recognize the potential consequences of that decision.
    I agree except that "By the Book", he is allowed by law to care according to the code of conduct (HR handbook).

  10. #54
    Member Array TVille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I agree except that "By the Book", he is allowed by law to care according to the code of conduct (HR handbook).
    Except the "book" is his manager and his boss. And HR will back them to the hilt when he gets fired.

  11. #55
    Member Array Blkandrust's Avatar
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    I carry at work. If I am caught,I will lose my job. I can find another job......

  12. #56
    Member Array Bhamrichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by satori59 View Post
    It's one thing to take personal responsibility for self defense, it's another thing for a company to take legal responsibility for others to do the same. Not much upside, a lot ot potential downside. Good discussion, however...
    Playing devils advocate a little here. So if my employer, even though I'm in compliance with all the necessary rules of the road, disallows me from having the ability to defend myself when some nutjob or hot head comes in shooting, does that then place the company in the position of being completely responsible for my safety and security? After all, they've told me, you can't defend yourself, we won't allow it. So like a good little drone I put my trust in there internal security measures, and bang, one day I'm dead due to following there policies. So my estate could sue I assume, or would hope, at the failure of the companies security plan.

    Personal opinion here, but, NOT happening. The company assumes no liability, and I only get one chance to save my own life. That's a company policy, I will never follow. I may get fired if I have to use my CC to save my own life, but i'll still be pounding dirt on this earth, and I can find another job. Second chances with death just don't happen.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...

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  13. #57
    VIP Member Array sixgun's Avatar
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    I dont carry at work right now. But in the future I plan to. Concealed of course. We have a few individuals that are questionable. If Im caught and fired Ill collect funemployment until I find something else. My safety is first and foremost.

  14. #58
    Member Array Frado's Avatar
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    Park off your company grounds in another local parking lot if you can. Why take the chance and lose your livelihood, it's not worth it. Company Policy is Company Policy..

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    "Except as allowed by law": To me, this phrase provides you with a legal recourse in the event you chose to carry and subsequently got fired. Unless your place of employment (and places it extend to) are expressly off limits by law, then carrying there is "allowed by law." Now, it could be one of those "win the battle but lose the war" situations if it came down to it. Only you can decide if the risk of carrying (or not carrying) is worth it to you.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  16. #60
    Member Array MrsHB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Unless your place of employment (and places it extend to) are expressly off limits by law, then carrying there is "allowed by law."
    It may be "allowed by law", but that doesn't mean it must be "allowed by the employer".

    After all, drinking alcohol is perfectly legal, but that doesn't mean you can't get fired for doing it at work...
    Topsider likes this.
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