The Fallacy of Being Above it all - Page 2

The Fallacy of Being Above it all

This is a discussion on The Fallacy of Being Above it all within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree completely....

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  1. #16
    Member Array tony1990's Avatar
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    I agree completely.


  2. #17
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    Thanks Mods.
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  3. #18
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    Was something wrong said?
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Sounds like someones feelings are hurt to me.
    I do not know about my feelings being hurt (most people that actually know me wonder if my last feeling is still active) as much as being disgusted by people that believe that the Second Amendment is about "Hunting Heritage" or "Sporting Guns. Often (as in California when I lived there during the AWB of 1989) we see these same people vote away another persons right out of ignorance of the Constitution or out of appeasement so their guns are not effected. They facilitate the "divide and conquer" strategy that the socialist bring to the forefront. If they had back bone, a basic understanding of the "divide and conquer" strategy, or understanding of the Constitution they would not be so quick to back stab other gun owners.

    By facilitating and perpetuating the divide and conquer strategy, they are damaging their own chances of gun ownership. If the very last free and legal gun owners in America are sportsman and hunters, they will receive very little help from anyone that they back stabbed. That is exactly how it went down in Australia and England. Fight with us now while we have a chance or fight alone at the end when you have zero chance.

    I haven't read anything that long since the last Clive Cussler novel I read,
    I am impressed with your willingness and ability to overcome such an overwhelmingly difficult endeavor. My hat goes off to your tenaciousness.

  5. #20
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    Re: The Fallacy of Being Above it all

    There are 2 threads on this

    The Fallacy of Being Above it all

    Maybe the mods can merge them?

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    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    "Rights" don't come from man or from government or from the Constitution.

    The 2nd amendment states the "Right" that is already yours...It was a Right we all possessed before it was written as an amendment to the Constitution.

    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights did not create Rights.

    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights lists the Rights that we already have.

    These Rights come from a higher power than man, government and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    Some people call this higher power "God".

    Rights are not given to you...we are born with Rights...Rights are INHERENT (you should look that word up in the dictionary)

    We all have a Right to keep and bear Arms.

    Arms are weapons.

    These weapons are used for protection.

    Guns are one of many types of Arms.
    Yeah, I've seen that before.

    God never bestowed any gun rights on anybody. There are a million ways to protect your 'life.'

    Our Founding Fathers...men, perhaps part of a govt body you want to consider a 'higher power?'....chose to preserve our gun rights thru the 2A to enable us to retain Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness.

    I'm sure that God would prefer we find more peaceful ways of doing that and of getting along in general.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Yeah, I've seen that before.

    God never bestowed any gun rights on anybody. There are a million ways to protect your 'life.'

    Our Founding Fathers...men, perhaps part of a govt body you want to consider a 'higher power?'....chose to preserve our gun rights thru the 2A to enable us to retain Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness.

    I'm sure that God would prefer we find more peaceful ways of doing that and of getting along in general.
    And so is that why Jesus told the Disciples to sell a robe and buy a sword if they did not have one, because he would no longer be here to protect them, just before they took him away.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    And so is that why Jesus told the Disciples to sell a robe and buy a sword if they did not have one, because he would no longer be here to protect them, just before they took him away.
    Sounds like God was suggesting Jesus/disciples protect himself/themselve, yes? I wonder why God didnt just give them guns?

    Really, I wonder if God would have *preferred* that Jesus' enemies would have found more peaceful resolution to their persecution (or no persecution at all?)

    Points for trying tho.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Yeah, I've seen that before.

    God never bestowed any gun rights on anybody. There are a million ways to protect your 'life.'

    Our Founding Fathers...men, perhaps part of a govt body you want to consider a 'higher power?'....chose to preserve our gun rights thru the 2A to enable us to retain Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness.

    I'm sure that God would prefer we find more peaceful ways of doing that and of getting along in general.
    I never said "guns", I said "Arms". The most basic of "Arms" are sticks and rocks (those were here in the beginning) and some of the more complex "Arms" are guns and gun accessories.

    Men and governments are not "higher powers"...some want to be, but they are not. Men are men and governments are governments and neither is synonymous with "higher powers". Some men and some governments may be more powerful than others but this does not make them a "higher power".

    Our Founding Fathers wrote a document called the Constitution of the United States. This document outlined the limitations the government would have and the powers the people have. Our Founding Fathers wrote another document called The Bill of Rights. This document listed the inherent Rights that all people have so that everyone could view them...this includes those who work in government. This document informs the reader about what inherent rights all people have.

    Man created governments. Man was here on Earth long before the first government was established.

    Man has had Rights from day one.

    Rights are INHERENT...they are a permanent and inseparable quality which people retain possession of.

    We all have a Right to keep and bear Arms and that Right shall not be infringed.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    I never said "guns", I said "Arms". The most basic of "Arms" are sticks and rocks (those were here in the beginning) and some of the more complex "Arms" are guns and gun accessories.

    Men and governments are not "higher powers"...some want to be, but they are not. Men are men and governments are governments and neither is synonymous with "higher powers". Some men and some governments may be more powerful than others but this does not make them a "higher power".

    Our Founding Fathers wrote a document called the Constitution of the United States. This document outlined the limitations the government would have and the powers the people have. Our Founding Fathers wrote another document called The Bill of Rights. This document listed the inherent Rights that all people have so that everyone could view them...this includes those who work in government. This document informs the reader about what inherent rights all people have.

    Man created governments. Man was here on Earth long before the first government was established.

    Man has had Rights from day one.

    Rights are INHERENT...they are a permanent and inseparable quality which people retain possession of.

    We all have a Right to keep and bear Arms and that Right shall not be infringed.
    You are stretching things...altho maybe there is historical perspective (not one I'm aware of but I'm not a historian).

    I however, was clearly talking about God (you brought up some 'higher power' and then decided to define that in the next post as ..."not of man") and GUNS and I made the distinction for gun rights because I also referred to other methods of self defense (I think I said hundreds or used some other very large term).

    The right to life as inherent? Sure. Specifically using a gun? (Which is what I wrote). Not so much, as you just agreed.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Um, "God-given right" as understood in the context of the constitution has nothing to to with the Bible, or Jesus. It actually is purely a seventeenth/eighteenth century enlightenment/deist understanding argued from natural law. Let's go back and get context.

    Declaration of Independence:

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    I quote this section because there is two things we learn here. First, that our forefathers of this nation believed that all rights of humans are derived from "nature and nature's God." Three rights are then given, but those are not the only rights given by God, they are three that are "among these" unalienable rights. Then, we come to the next section:
    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
    Thus, it is the governed that must give up rights freely because no government can be legitimate when they alienating rights that are unalienable.

    The Constitution then, is a document by which certain God-given unalienable rights are given up to create a federal government. The Bill of rights, is the addendum that assures 10 unalienable rights are NOT infringed on by the government. That bill was actually fought over because there were those that thought by passing such a bill, it would give some people the idea that the constitution gave rights, rather than removed rights by common agreement of the governed. Hence, in the eyes of our founders, the right to bear arms in a unalienable right given by God that was codified in hopes of assuring that unalienable right was never restricted.

    In that sense, in the U.S. Justice system, the Right to Bear Arms MUST be seen as a unalienable right given to man by God. To see it any other way, is to negate the constitution and all the rights we hold.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    Um, "God-given right" as understood in the context of the constitution has nothing to to with the Bible, or Jesus. It actually is purely a seventeenth/eighteenth century enlightenment/deist understanding argued from natural law. Let's go back and get context.

    Declaration of Independence:



    I quote this section because there is two things we learn here. First, that our forefathers of this nation believed that all rights of humans are derived from "nature and nature's God." Three rights are then given, but those are not the only rights given by God, they are three that are "among these" unalienable rights. Then, we come to the next section:
    Thus, it is the governed that must give up rights freely because no government can be legitimate when they alienating rights that are unalienable.

    The Constitution then, is a document by which certain God-given unalienable rights are given up to create a federal government. The Bill of rights, is the addendum that assures 10 unalienable rights are NOT infringed on by the government. That bill was actually fought over because there were those that thought by passing such a bill, it would give some people the idea that the constitution gave rights, rather than removed rights by common agreement of the governed. Hence, in the eyes of our founders, the right to bear arms in a unalienable right given by God that was codified in hopes of assuring that unalienable right was never restricted.

    In that sense, in the U.S. Justice system, the Right to Bear Arms MUST be seen as a unalienable right given to man by God. To see it any other way, is to negate the constitution and all the rights we hold.
    I didnt even read all that.

    The minute you bring up God in any discussion about the Const or our Rights, you lose a huge part of the American citizenry. Hence the failure of the Republican party (even if it's only people's perceptions). Because it is obvious from many conservative statesmen's platforms and STATED beliefs that it is indeed about God.

    So I prefer to try and make a more realistic distinction.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #28
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    All this is real nice right up to the point where you break one of the "Government laws". Then see how many "rights" you have while a guest at one of their long term residential hotels.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    "Rights" don't come from man or from government or from the Constitution.

    The 2nd amendment states the "Right" that is already yours...It was a Right we all possessed before it was written as an amendment to the Constitution.

    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights did not create Rights.

    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights lists the Rights that we already have.

    These Rights come from a higher power than man, government and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    Some people call this higher power "God".

    Rights are not given to you...we are born with Rights...Rights are INHERENT (you should look that word up in the dictionary)

    We all have a Right to keep and bear Arms.

    Arms are weapons.

    These weapons are used for protection.

    Guns are one of many types of Arms.
    Well said!
    1MoreGoodGuy likes this.


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  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    All this as to where our Rights come from is really great. Here we are facing a Government that wants to take away our Right no matter where it comes from to "Keep and Bear Arms". Instead of fight to keep those Rights we fight among ourselves.

    We are doing what Obama wants us to do we are dividing our support for one another and he will conquer. In one of the last articles I read he is trying to get WalMart and other retail stores to go against the rights of gun shows to sell guns. Together we stand, divide we fall. (one by one) They will not be satisfied till they have all guns and your powers (what ever they are) is gone.

    Come on lets stand as a group of gun owners and those who have Rights. (Support the Constitution) Do let the antis win by fighting ourselves.

    The question is WHAT can you do to fight the antis not some other gun owner? It is time to hold Politicians feet to the fire on upholding the Constitution do so will solve a lot more problem we as a Nation are facing than gun control. I can care less what a Politician thinks I want them to follow the constitution and the Oath they take.

    The Politician in DC are not employees of the Federal Government but are employees of the State who voted them in. Maybe its time for the State Officials to go to Washington and send so home tarred and feathered on a rail. I know Unconstitutional but they sure can be talked to when they come home by even We the People. Lets start telling them where they stand.

    The Tea Party worked great while it was truly active, it got attention. Time to bring it back to the front and let all see it at work.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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