Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?
This is a discussion on Can *you* exercise non-lethal force? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Any thought to going back into McDonalds and asking the manager to call the police ?...
October 18th, 2006 12:21 AM
Any thought to going back into McDonalds and asking the manager to call the police ?
October 18th, 2006 12:29 AM
Without telling a long story, about three weeks ago I got into a situation where OC would have been a great tool. Some years ago, I could have handled this bare-handed...but six years of chemo and other drugs, plus the disease itself, have taken the strength from me. It was not a situation where I should have drawn the Glock.
So, I promptly bought some spray, in the form of an ASP Palm Defender ($28.95), just like my wife carries. http://www.streichers.com/ProductLis...ory=PALM_IRRIT
If I walk in a lot or ramp, it is in my left hand, leaving the right hand free to draw.
I've always carried a 4 ounce spray can in the console, but now I've got a small supply in my left jacket/pants pocket, and feel better for it...
October 18th, 2006 12:36 AM
If I were going to carry it, that's the method I'd choose. You have the ability to spray as well as to strike if necessary.
Originally Posted by JimmyC
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
October 18th, 2006 12:41 AM
Yeah, I did forget about that. I still think it would lead to unneeded contact with a BG to be carrying OC, stun gun or the like. If you’re close enough to use/need those weapons, you’re to close. Occupy your mind with creating distance, and getting out of dodge.
Originally Posted by dogrunner
October 18th, 2006 12:42 AM
From the perspective of private security -- including bodyguarding and executive protection --- it is good to have some non-lethal options to control a situation before using deadly force.
Awareness and avoidance always precede any methods first, of course. Then, verbal and psychological methods are attempted, then if you need to, some unarmed methods like arm locks can get the point across to the nuisance maker. And yeah, you'd better be prepared, trained and competent in these things or the situation could go south in a hurry.
I don't use it myself, but a stun gun might be good to get the nuisance maker's attention, even if just to make some noise. OC pepper spray is good if the situation escalates. A baton or striking implement is good. Also some unarmed strikes would be good, but again, if you're reasonably skilled.
Then, if you have no choice and there is imminent danger, you have your firearm, of course.
October 18th, 2006 01:21 AM
Even in Florida there is nothing wrong with tactical retreat. Maybe instead of reaching for the pepper spray, just jump in the car lock the door and drive a short distance away and call 911. People like the one you described should be reported.
October 18th, 2006 02:30 AM
My take on it.
Whenever this topic is discussed, someone always says that if you CWW and carry pepper spray, and are involved in a shooting, the prosecutor will make the argument that you should have used the pepper spray first or instead of lethal force hence landing you hard time. Well, if you CCW and don't carry pepper spray, who says the prosecutor won't make the argument that as a responsible CCW'er you should have carried pepper spray so that you'd have an LTL alternative rather than arming yourself solely with deadly force?
It is impossible to predict what may happen in the aftermath of a self-defense shooting. There are far too many variables. It depends on the DA, the environment of the PD. Is it an election year and elected officials want to appear tough on crime?
As is probably obvious by now, I'm a proponent of pepper spray. Unfortunately, none of us are able to predict or control with any certainty exactly how our own self-defense scenario will play out if we are ever involved in one. Based on many responses in this and other forums about this same topic, it is clear that many people believe that if they are ever involved in a situation requiring SD it will be clearcut, the BG's intentions will be clear, he WILL have a weapon of some kind, and lethal force will be justified and thusly applied. But...this just ain't so. Just as there are many variables in the aftermath of an SD shooting, there are many variables involved before and during an SD encounter.
My own personal experience - About four years ago, I'm 99% certain that I was the intended victim of a mugging or...maybe something worse. The person rapidly approaching and verbally engaging me was not displaying a weapon. Fortunately, I was able to escape by crossing the road. (He was visibly very angry about that.) The road was one of the busy main roads in Kingman, AZ, and had four lanes with a center turn lane. It just happened that there was a break in traffic that allowed me to cross. Had there not been that break in traffic, then I would have had to resort to other options. Since he was not displaying a weapon, I would NOT have been justified in using deadly force. He may have had a weapon but you can not employ deadly force against someone because of what they might have.
Another case for pepper spray involves crowded places. You're down at the local carnival and someone attacks you. Do you shoot? Maybe, maybe not. Remember, we're responsible for every piece of copper and lead.
Yet, another case for pepper spray involves belligerent people. Maybe they're drunk, maybe they're not quite "all there" and don't pose a deadly threat but they may need to be dealt with. This is where pepper spray may be helpful. Pepper spray by itself will not bruise, cut, break bones, etc. That is a much safer way to deal with, for example, a person that is mentally handicapped, mildly violent, and not of sufficient size and strength to pose a serious threat.
Some may think that there is a very slim chance of the scenarios that I've presented actually happening. True, the chances are very slim. But aren't the chances of any of us needing to fire our weapons in SD also slim?
I'm not advocating that we should carry with us all the tools of the force continuum like an LEO; pepper spray, baton, Taser, bean bag gun, sidearm, etc. but I don't think pepper spray is silly or going overboard for a non-LEO.
That's my nickel's worth.
October 18th, 2006 03:47 AM
Pepper spray does have its uses. Not every altercation is going to require a firearm. A blast of pepper spray might be just what you need to help escape the situation. If that doesn't work then you act accordingly. Just assure you go home at the end of the day.
October 18th, 2006 05:48 AM
I simply won't carry a full duty belt of stuff everyday.
October 18th, 2006 06:28 AM
I have pepper spray around, and often on me for the four footed hazards as well. If I cap an aggresive dog in town, I'm facing a world of headaches including carry through and ricochetes. The spray will end the problem quickly. I like having options as well. I know from past experiences that I sum up situations under severe stress well, it's one reason I'm still living. Not every situation calls for a firearm, not every one even calls for OC. Sometimes acting mild will solve it, sometimes acting tough. In the end it's the most important thing to get back home to my family though and for that I like options.
If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.
October 18th, 2006 08:36 AM
+1 on JimmyC
Originally Posted by xsquidgator
I always carry an ASP Street Defender on my non-dominant hand, so I have my dominant hand free to draw if need to - no time lost looking for something that is already there (most times you have to conceal your firearm but not your OC). Link to a similar post I made:
October 18th, 2006 09:34 AM
So you're thinking that if peacefuljimmy's BG had b**chslapped him, jimmy should just go for the gun? Verbal de-escalation is great, but if it fails, we don't live in the Old West, where you can shoot a thug, and ride along to the next town, with minimal hassle. Something less than 900-1500fps is not infrequently appropriate.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
If all you have is a firearm, no real H2H skills other than possibly a good right hook, and foul language, you better carry in a Level III retention holster. Not only do you have to defend yourself, you must remain in control of your weapon(even if you aren't utilizing it). Most violent assaults are not lethal, not to say that they wouldn't necessarily warrant lethal response, but honestly, if I can club someone's nuts with a fistload, or get a good sub-sternal jab with a koppo, I'm much happier than busting my knuckles or expending the time and money defending a shooting. I understand what you're saying, it just seems a tad narrow, in focus. Just my $.02.....
October 18th, 2006 10:38 AM
Yes, to a degree, depending on your point of view.
IMO, our "weapons" range from firearms & knives on the lethal end, to traditional non-lethal alternatives such as pepper spray, kubotan, flashlight (butt) or keys (sharp), as well as our tactics and wits. These can reach out and "touch" someone in many cases just as effectively as an overt weapon. I strongly feel that tatics and wits are the oft-forgotten powerhouse skills in the non-lethal category. Not overt weapons, as such, but just as powerful to be able to draw down a situation to sane (if not rational) levels that allow extrication from a situation. Physical limitations preclude my use of fists/moves beyond a couple of basics for very long. I opt not to carry sprays, taser or common non-lethal items. I believe that non-lethal situations can generally be managed sufficiently, and that too many tools for a person can lead to hesitation if it goes postal and requires lethal force to terminate.
So, where does that leave me? Minus a couple of tools some would deem appropriate, I suppose, but I strongly leverage simple control (via tactics) over most situations and have excellent "radar," which have together helped keep things manageable and safe for more than a dozen years, now. In-and-out, high-intensity radar, scouting unknown fields in advance of jumping in, always having a hand free, never believing my first order of business is anything other than keeping myself alive and safe, being circumspect at all times when on the street ... each of these go a long way toward safety and security.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 18th, 2006 11:15 AM
I generally think that pepper spray is not a very good idea for someone who carries. First of all, there is a lot of difference in sprays, and the generic pepper spray doesn't do a lot to a determined attacked besides tick em off. They can't see very well but they can attack.
The stuff that really disables them is illegal to carry in Michigan, so it's not really an option for me.
On top of that, if I'm worried enough to pepper spray a guy, I will be worried enough to ready my draw hand and warn him off. If escalated, I will draw. If a guy comes at me after a warning AND a draw, then he is approaching an armed person with itent to do bodily harm. Depending on distance, I MAY warn him one more time, but anyone stupid enough to attack an armed man after being warned is NOT someone I want to go H2H with and risk losing my firearm. I'd rather NOT be armed than go H2H in that situation.
Pepper spray is ok for people not carrying or in situations where you are trying to break up a fight in which you are not involved. Other than that, I would and do avoid.
Please, it's hard enough to keep my pants up as it is without adding another thing to my Batman Utility Belt.
October 18th, 2006 12:54 PM
Good discussion. I agree with katmandoo re: a warned attacker. However, I see the value of OC when faced with stray dogs on your neighborhood walk, or those occasions when you can't carry your side arm. You can also place a can of OC in your hand as you walk to the car in a garage (or anywhere) and it not be percieved as brandishing. When surprised by a close attack, spray in the hand is mighty quick to deploy. I just think OC has it's place. Do I carry it regularly? ....Nope, but starting to think more seriously about it.
I'll keep my freedom, my liberty, and my guns. You can keep the change.
By Concealed Carry in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
Last Post: November 24th, 2012, 10:37 PM
By littlejon126 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: October 9th, 2009, 05:34 AM
By ExactlyMyPoint in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: July 10th, 2009, 10:25 AM
By JudoJake in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
Last Post: November 8th, 2008, 05:25 PM
By titleist in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: May 31st, 2007, 08:14 PM
Search tags for this page
nonlethal force options discussion
using less lethal weapons when dealing with armed edp
Click on a term to search for related topics.