Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

This is a discussion on Can *you* exercise non-lethal force? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; if there is time to use less than lethal force there is time to leave. In CT non-lethal force devices are illegal so lethal is ...

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Thread: Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

  1. #31
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    if there is time to use less than lethal force there is time to leave. In CT non-lethal force devices are illegal so lethal is about all you have.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Sometimes acting mild will solve it, sometimes acting tough.
    Well, in my case I chose "acting tough" -- or, at least, resolute -- but as it happened that did not discourage this particular guy, it egged him on. You just can't know which one will be the best, you go with your gut.

    The reason I don't like to even get into a discussion with... well, beggars, is because they immediately put you into an uncomfortable position where you have to listen to their b.s. story, then either hand them money and feel like you got bullied into it, or deny them money and have to deal with them possibly getting agitated.

    I really don't know what this guy's "favor" was that he wanted to ask me. What I do know is that once he was denied, his demeanor toward me proved to me that he was not a fellow I would have cared much for helping. If a person is asking for charity and gets angry and abusive when he doesn't get it, how deserving is he really?

    Now, he may have asked for a lift somewhere. I would absolutely have declined. He might have gotten just as angry then, even if I had done so politely. He might have asked for money, which is what I suspected he would do, and I was in no mood to have to give it to him. He might have asked for simple directions; but then there is no way to know whether something like that is a ploy or setup, possibly putting me into more danger from accomplices and whatnot.

    I still believe in keeping the option of pepper spray around, for reasons already stated. It may be reallllly ambiguous whether a gun is warranted. I have my "training" in the form of what I have read of the law, and the CCW class I took. It sucks, but we really do have to allow ourselves to come under a pretty certain threat before we would not get ourselves in trouble for drawing and brandishing a gun...

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Well, in my case I chose "acting tough" -- or, at least, resolute -- but as it happened that did not discourage this particular guy, it egged him on. You just can't know which one will be the best, you go with your gut.
    Here's a line I've used in the past...

    Loudly

    "Are you talking to me? If you are I'm sorry but I'm almost totally deaf and I don't have my hearing aid. Can't understand a thing you're saying. Have a nice day" Then walk away. If nothing else it confuses them while you make it to your vehicle.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    This type of guy would have become just as irate, and would have called me a lying , I'm sure of it.

  6. #35
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotammo View Post
    if there is time to use less than lethal force there is time to leave. In CT non-lethal force devices are illegal so lethal is about all you have.
    This is what I referred to in my previous reply to this thread; people thinking that they have it all worked out as to exactly how any situation they're involved in will work out.

    What if the person is not displaying a weapon, is just beligerent, and is not letting you leave by stepping in front of you no matter which direction you try to leave? What if the person is between you and your car? Depending on what the area is like, walking away from the person and your car may put you in even greater danger. Maybe there are other shady characters in the background watching to see what develops. My job requires me to go all over Arizona which puts me into some less than desirable areas. I can not simply choose not to go to certain places. There is a job to be done and I must do it. That being said however, these situations also happen in desirable areas.

    In your case, you say that non-lethal devices are illegal in CT. So...the government has graciously made your decision for you. But in areas where LTL devices are legal, I believe they have a place.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    AZ Dog, the scenario you describe would be scary.
    Being accosted by a belligerent but as-yet not violent person whom you fear might use violence, having no LTL option, not being allowed past him...

    Just how would you all handle this kind of thing? How would it stand up, legally, to draw a firearm in such a case, when all the guy has been doing so far is putting himself between you and the way out, possibly verbally taunting you?

    He's committing a crime, yes. Assault, possibly, and possibly wrongful imprisonment (or whatever they'd call it when someone disallows you freedom of movement). But he has not threatened your safety or your life, or produced a weapon to put you in fear of either. But of course you can't stand there all day continuing to try to meekly walk off in yet a different direction only to have him block you.

    Do you draw, and say, "You are preventing me from leaving freely, and intimidating me, causing me to fear for my safety. Your actions are belligerent, and you force me to have to defend myself. Get the out of my way now or I will be forced to fire!"?

    I can't figure this one out...

  8. #37
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    A

    Just how would you all handle this kind of thing? How would it stand up, legally, to draw a firearm in such a case, when all the guy has been doing so far is putting himself between you and the way out, possibly verbally taunting you?
    You call the police and or return to the store/restaurant. You also ready yourself for a quick draw and scan in directions to make sure there is no accomplice while making sure you maintain distance. It really doesn't matter how dangerous (or not dangerour) the area is. Until you are confronted with the threat or reality of physical force, it would be un-wise to draw. At most, I would place my draw hand on my weapon while gesturing and verbalizing him away from me.

    Encounters like this either escalate or de-escalate...they do not maintain. It's not like you would be there three hours later still trying to convince the guy to move...

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    That is a great one ELCruusr , I think I might have to borrow that.
    When I was uniformed, it was manditory. Plain Clothes it was optional. Now no less than lethal on me, other than my brain, if that will not get me out of the situation, provide me an exit, or diffuse the situation and it is absolutely necessary, then I will do what I have to...........

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    I don't carry it. I'd also prefer not to get into a fist fight either. You can feel threatened by someone even if you don't see a weapon. If they are acting irate enough I'd could potentially feel justified enough to draw. I'm never going to let someone victimize me because I don't see a weapon. I'm also not going to force myself to carry a batman utility belt in the hopes of somehow finding a sane DA to not prosecute me. If someone is threatening me and won't back up when warned, then they are trying to kill or seriously injure me. The line is drawn there.

    Everyone has to do what is right by them. That's my 0.02.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Being accosted by a belligerent but as-yet not violent person whom you fear might use violence, having no LTL option, not being allowed past him...
    No violence, then there's no justified lethal force allowable ... not anywhere I know of. Period.

    I've had a couple of situations like this. It takes some real forebearance to come out of it without his escalating to a physical confrontation. Back away, simple verbal commands, back against a wall, ultimatum if continued being pressed, hand on firearm, and if in a public place I would loudly ask that the police be called immediately (or have my partner/S.O. do this). Hasn't failed me yet. If it went postal, I would stop it. He would have been given warning; been offered a way out; been told I feared an attack and that any would be stopped; and it would be stopped. (Being physically disabled means I simply am unable to withstand a harsh physical assault, hence I'd quickly find myself on the ground and at severe risk. Isn't going to happen, while I'm able.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    What would be the dynamic if you had no LTL weapon, a guy on a sidewalk blocked your path and continued to step in front of you anywhere you tried to go, and you finally bolted and ran in a given direction away from him, and he ran after you?

    The man I'm talking about has not said anything about killing you, and more importantly has not displayed or mentioned a weapon. But he's running after you.

    If you are able to do so, are you then legally justified in drawing your weapon as you run, stopping, turning, and firing if he does not stop his pursuit?

    I would have to imagine that being chased by someone down a street on foot would open up to you the legitimate right to respond with deadly force. What else can the guy mean but to harm you, by that point?

  13. #42
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    Not that I think you should hve to deal wth the situation at all but a fist fight doesn't constitute deadly force, other than the obvious exceptions difference size / age / number of attackers. It is a choice that each person has to make for themselves, if you believe at the time that loss of life or great bodily harm is imminate (real or perceived) the situation does not matter.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I would like to think that a case could be made that I was in fear for my life if some stranger antagonizes me and won't let me leave peacefully, and then RUNS AFTER ME, regardless of whether he seems to have a weapon on him or not. That is bizarre behavior. I think the "reasonable person" standard would accept that someone would fear for his life in such a case.

  15. #44
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I would like to think that a case could be made that I was in fear for my life if some stranger antagonizes me and won't let me leave peacefully, and then RUNS AFTER ME, regardless of whether he seems to have a weapon on him or not. That is bizarre behavior. I think the "reasonable person" standard would accept that someone would fear for his life in such a case.
    I don't know. Could be the guy is retarded, alzheimer's, slightly but harmlessly crazy...I would continue to evade if possible simply because I never want to get in a H2H fight while I have a gun as a simple physical altercation can lead to me losing the firearm. I doubt I would run away in the first place, though. Keep my distance, yes. Return to the store, yes. Running makes you kind of vulnerable, though, especially if it turns out the guy DOES have a gun.

  16. #45
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    My 2 cents.

    Jeffrey, you survived without fighting, injuries, losses or having to call a lawyer: You won.

    Get a pepper spray/foam/gel and practice using it with your weak hand. That should leave your strong hand free to access your primary weapon.

    In this particular case, if it were me and the guy wouldn't attack but wouldn't leave either, I'd reach for my cell phone and dial 911. If the guy is screaming and cussing while you talk to the operator, even better because 911 will hear and probably add some spice to the call for assistance.

    Another thing, even though the guy went racial, personal and stupid, you did not let your ego become a part of the equation. Good job!
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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