Can *you* exercise non-lethal force? - Page 4

Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

This is a discussion on Can *you* exercise non-lethal force? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AZ Dog What if the person is not displaying a weapon, is just beligerent, and is not letting you leave by stepping ...

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Thread: Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Dog View Post
    What if the person is not displaying a weapon, is just beligerent, and is not letting you leave by stepping in front of you no matter which direction you try to leave? What if the person is between you and your car?
    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffery
    What would be the dynamic if you had no LTL weapon, a guy on a sidewalk blocked your path and continued to step in front of you anywhere you tried to go, and you finally bolted and ran in a given direction away from him, and he ran after you?
    If he won't let you leave and/or resticting your mobility, then to me he's presenting a threat. By this point you should have already given him some very direct verbal commands. I'm not talking about "sir would you step aside" but more along the lines of "back the F*** up/get the hell out of my way." If, at this point he still refuses to leave and you have no LTL tools (and can't return to a safe place to call 911, it's time for a preemptive strike. For example: chin-jab, EOH to the neck, thai kick to the leg, etc.
    You cannot remain in this situation. He may be stalling and looking for an opportunity to attack, he may be waiting for his buddies to show up, either way, you have to get out of there now.

    Let me be clear, I'm not talking about getting into a fight with this guy, I'm talking about putting him down quickly and unexpectedly and getting out of there. If I decide it's time to move on the guy, I'm not going to give him a chance to get set. The subterfuge and rusing works both ways, we're used to discussing how to avoid becoming a victim of these types of attacks. In this case, I'm going to be the one delivering the sucker punch.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    In addition to what's been mentioned, faking a heart attack, especially if you're older, ups the ante. The attacker is suddenly faced with wanting money to possibly ending up with a dead person on his hands - at least in his mind.

    As for OC, there is definitely a place for it in private citizen carry.

    Let's say, for example, that you are accosted by a beligerant individual who wishes to fight you for no apparent reason, or iffy reasons. The guy is about your height, weight and build.

    There is no disparity of force there. You cannot draw.

    However, you are (or at least I am) scared to death of bloodborn pathogens. I'm a first dan in mixed martial arts, trained by an Army Ranger. I'm confident in my H2H abilities. However, I'm not confident in my immune system to fight HIV successfully. In other words, I don't want to fight this guy because our blood will mingle and I may end up with a terminal illness.

    HIV is something almost everyone understands, and I can see the defense appealing to the jury's fear of the AIDS epidemic should it even go that far.

    I would warn, spray, then retreat to call paramedics and police. Getting it into action wouldn't be a question, as a person who is about to attack you usually postures first, or acts "funny" at least.

    Having proper training with OC is critical however, and backlash is probable if the wind's moving at all in your direction.

    Josh <><

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    In addition to what's been mentioned, faking a heart attack, especially if you're older, ups the ante. The attacker is suddenly faced with wanting money to possibly ending up with a dead person on his hands - at least in his mind.
    That makes about as much sense as encouraging women to carry "rape whistles."

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    As for OC, there is definitely a place for it in private citizen carry.

    Let's say, for example, that you are accosted by a beligerant individual who wishes to fight you for no apparent reason, or iffy reasons. The guy is about your height, weight and build.

    There is no disparity of force there. You cannot draw.
    if his behavior puts you in fear for your safety, do what you need to do. If he has ignored or refused to follow your verbal commands, then he is a threat regardless of your respective sizes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    However, you are (or at least I am) scared to death of bloodborn pathogens. I'm a first dan in mixed martial arts, trained by an Army Ranger. I'm confident in my H2H abilities. However, I'm not confident in my immune system to fight HIV successfully. In other words, I don't want to fight this guy because our blood will mingle and I may end up with a terminal illness.

    HIV is something almost everyone understands, and I can see the defense appealing to the jury's fear of the AIDS epidemic should it even go that far.
    You're ASSuming that he has hiv/aids and that your blood is going to "mingle." I'm not saying I want to go swapping blood with someone but it's not a prevalent enough issue that I'm going to hesitate to go "hands on" if I have to. who says you're both going to end up all bloody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    I would warn, spray, then retreat to call paramedics and police. Getting it into action wouldn't be a question, as a person who is about to attack you usually postures first, or acts "funny" at least.
    usually but not always, once again you're making an assumption.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  4. #49
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    If he won't let you leave and/or resticting your mobility, then to me he's presenting a threat. By this point you should have already given him some very direct verbal commands. I'm not talking about "sir would you step aside" but more along the lines of "back the F*** up/get the hell out of my way." If, at this point he still refuses to leave and you have no LTL tools (and can't return to a safe place to call 911, it's time for a preemptive strike. For example: chin-jab, EOH to the neck, thai kick to the leg, etc.
    You cannot remain in this situation. He may be stalling and looking for an opportunity to attack, he may be waiting for his buddies to show up, either way, you have to get out of there now.

    Let me be clear, I'm not talking about getting into a fight with this guy, I'm talking about putting him down quickly and unexpectedly and getting out of there. If I decide it's time to move on the guy, I'm not going to give him a chance to get set. The subterfuge and rusing works both ways, we're used to discussing how to avoid becoming a victim of these types of attacks. In this case, I'm going to be the one delivering the sucker punch.
    Excellent post KenpoTex. I was posing my questions as a way to get others to play out scenarios in their minds. I play them through often and among the "sucker punches" that I've considered are: a punch to the Adam's apple, foot or knee to the groin, or head butt. Any of these done effectively and without holding back will take them out of the fight quickly.

    ccw9mm brings up an excellent point of being handicapped. We do not all have the same abilities. Disparity of Force may automatically apply to women and those that are handicapped or elderly, even if no weapon is displayed. My 76 year old dad is wheelchair bound with Parkinson's Disease and my 78 year old mother has a little trouble with balance sometimes while walking. Hence, they do not have some of the options that a younger, healthier person would have. I guarantee you that my mother will NOT be outrunning some 25 year old punk while pushing my Dad in a wheelchair. So to complicate this discussion even further, there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Dog
    Excellent post KenpoTex. I was posing my questions as a way to get others to play out scenarios in their minds. I play them through often and among the "sucker punches" that I've considered are: a punch to the Adam's apple, foot or knee to the groin, or head butt. Any of these done effectively and without holding back will take them out of the fight quickly.
    excellent choices (some of my favorites for deadly-force situations) although none of those would be what I would consider less lethal. The ones I listed are less likely to inflict severe damage. As a result, I feel that they fit into that less lethal niche that we've been discussing.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  6. #51
    Member Array steve63's Avatar
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    Would you be justified in maybe using a small stungun instead of pepper spray in that kind of situation?

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Peacefuljeffrey, have you read Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership by Jon Gutmacher? This is sort of the ccw "bible" for Florida. It pretty well answers the questions you are posing as concerns Fl law. Remember that different states may have different enough laws to give different answers in some situations.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve63 View Post
    Would you be justified in maybe using a small stungun instead of pepper spray in that kind of situation?
    OC-spray and stun-guns are usually placed at the same level in most "force continuums" so to answer your question, yes.

    The problem is that stun-guns are virtually worthless. They don't perform as advertised (they're not going to "drop a 300 lb. attacker in his tracks"), yeah, they hurt (I've been zapped with one a few times) but they aren't that big of a deal.

    Another problem with stun-guns is that they are a contact weapon that requires you to be within arms reach of the attacker before you can use the device.

    you'd be better off with the OC if you want something "less-lethal."
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    I carry red fox spray, when working on an unarmed post. Mainly for dogs.

    I carry a Kubotan with my knife and gun everywhere else. I think a Kubotan is a great less than leathal tool. Because of its vercitility, and efectiveness. Another bonus is that the avarage joe woud never concider it a weapon.

    Earlier at work I was thinking of going to Home Depot. I think I might pick up a wooden dowel while im there. Just so I can "whittle" a new Kubotan. Mabe make look like a decorative keychain fobb.


    p.S. There is also blackjacks. But they can be leathal. They also hurt like he=dobble hockey sticks, if ya fall and land on it. If its in your pocket. Trust me, I know!
    Last edited by gregarat; October 19th, 2006 at 08:31 AM. Reason: P.S. Added

  10. #55
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    If he won't let you leave and/or resticting your mobility, then to me he's presenting a threat. By this point you should have already given him some very direct verbal commands. I'm not talking about "sir would you step aside" but more along the lines of "back the F*** up/get the hell out of my way." If, at this point he still refuses to leave and you have no LTL tools (and can't return to a safe place to call 911, it's time for a preemptive strike. For example: chin-jab, EOH to the neck, thai kick to the leg, etc.
    I think this would potentially be a really bad idea. Let's say you attacked his neck (EOH) and he was armed. Now, assuming that the attacker is not Jet Lee, there is a chance for a failure. If there were, I think the bad guy would actually WIN a self-defence shooting case against YOU! I'm not saying he was justified or that you were not justified in attacking, but he could easily say, "I was just trying to ask this fella for the time and he attacked me. I was in fear of great bodily harm, so I drew and fired."

    The bottom line is that it is my opinion that if you decide to wear a firearm, you are holding yourself to a higher responsibility. This may mean that you must be LESS likely to enter into a confrontation in exchange for the knowledge that IF you MUST enter a deadly confrontation you are more likely to survive.

    No, I'd say you best best would be to evade, call 911, retreat, or, if necessary, place your hand aggressively in the draw position. It it were night time, I would even draw (to reduce the chance of being caught flat footed). I think in these circumstances you could beat a brandishing or intent charge easily.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    Let me be clear, I'm not talking about getting into a fight with this guy, I'm talking about putting him down quickly and unexpectedly and getting out of there.
    I agree with the sentiment, I just think that the average citizen (one without Kenpo in his handle) should NOT attack unless you need to defend your or another's life. And if you do, I would not mess around with the potential for disaster (i.e. brining a fist to a gun fight).

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    OC-spray and stun-guns are usually placed at the same level in most "force continuums" so to answer your question, yes.

    The problem is that stun-guns are virtually worthless. They don't perform as advertised (they're not going to "drop a 300 lb. attacker in his tracks"), yeah, they hurt (I've been zapped with one a few times) but they aren't that big of a deal.

    Another problem with stun-guns is that they are a contact weapon that requires you to be within arms reach of the attacker before you can use the device.

    you'd be better off with the OC if you want something "less-lethal."
    Agreed. Not to be crude, but in EMS I saw stunguns used more in mild "bedroom deviancy"(contact burns) than successful attacker KOs.

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122 View Post
    I think this would potentially be a really bad idea. Let's say you attacked his neck (EOH) and he was armed. Now, assuming that the attacker is not Jet Lee, there is a chance for a failure. If there were, I think the bad guy would actually WIN a self-defence shooting case against YOU!
    No, as described, what you are experiencing is "unlawful restraint", aka, false arrest, unlawful detention. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" to escape the situation. Like any situation, a prosecutor looking to make an example can press charges with absolutely no foundation, and it will be your responsibility to defend. At least you'll be alive.

  13. #58
    Member Array douglasd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankinNM View Post
    I wonder if spraying someone with pepper spray is concidered assault. It seems that even if you spray some guy who is just talking tough, that he could accuse you of assaulting him for no good reason.

    Yes, in most states it would be considered assault. If you couldn't prove that you had a good reason for believing he was about to assault you in some way, you could be in trouble if he pressed charges.

    As far as I'm concerned, trying to come up with a "less than lethal" solution is just asking for trouble. Either ignore him if you don't believe you are in danger, or use deadly force (shoot him) if you do. The middle ground becomes very muddy.
    Doug

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    "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122
    I think this would potentially be a really bad idea. Let's say you attacked his neck (EOH) and he was armed. Now, assuming that the attacker is not Jet Lee, there is a chance for a failure. If there were, I think the bad guy would actually WIN a self-defence shooting case against YOU! I'm not saying he was justified or that you were not justified in attacking, but he could easily say, "I was just trying to ask this fella for the time and he attacked me. I was in fear of great bodily harm, so I drew and fired."
    As Rob said, this person is, in effect, unlawfully restraining us. If you look at my post (the one you quoted) I never said to just walk up and hit the guy (which would enable him to make the claim of defense). I said that this action should be take after the guy has ignored our clear, "no-nonsense" verbal commands and as a result, demonstrating that he poses a threat to our safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122
    No, I'd say you best best would be to evade, call 911, retreat, or, if necessary, place your hand aggressively in the draw position. It it were night time, I would even draw (to reduce the chance of being caught flat footed). I think in these circumstances you could beat a brandishing or intent charge easily.
    So you don't advocate preemptively striking the guy but you're willing to put your hand on your gun which serves to let him know you're armed, and might cause him to play the "crazy dude tried to pull a gun on me" thing. If you're justified in drawing a weapon (threat of deadly force) then you're probably justified in hitting the dude.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  15. #60
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    So you don't advocate preemptively striking the guy but you're willing to put your hand on your gun which serves to let him know you're armed, and might cause him to play the "crazy dude tried to pull a gun on me" thing.
    If I have my hand on my gun for justified reasons, I'm no longer all that concerned with what happens if it further escalates as my next move will be draw, followed shortly by firing.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    If you're justified in drawing a weapon (threat of deadly force) then you're probably justified in hitting the dude.
    I guess what I'm saying is that if you are justified in drawing a weapon, you are justified in drawing a weapon! So do that!

    My boss is what would be called an equivalent of an 8th degree black belt in kung fu. He was actually invited and went to a Shao Lin temple in China to train some of their students in certain forms. Many of his friends are equally adept. His friend got into a confrontation on the street with a mugger and actually found himself on the ground before he realized it, although he prevailed shortly after that (pressure points can work wonders). My point, though, is that if he had a firearm, even the most well trained H2H people can lose control of it. For those of us less adept, I would avoid that risk at (almost) any cost.

    I'm not trying to say you are wrong. I'm not sure there is a "right" answer. However, while armed, I will be avoiding H2H and would advise most people (if asked) to do the same. The same would be true with most LTL force for me. I will evade until I cannot or should not evade any longer. I will call the policy when possible. If push comes to trigger, however, I will be the one that walks away.

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