Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

This is a discussion on Can *you* exercise non-lethal force? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I carry pepper spray for dogs. Most times they will be doing only what is normal and natural for a dog to do. You can't ...

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Thread: Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

  1. #61
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    I carry pepper spray for dogs. Most times they will be doing only what is normal and natural for a dog to do. You can't fault them for that.

    I carry a Sig P220 for other types of predator. The kind who rob, rape, and murder. You can fault them for that.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by douglasd View Post
    Yes, in most states it would be considered assault. If you couldn't prove that you had a good reason for believing he was about to assault you in some way, you could be in trouble if he pressed charges.

    As far as I'm concerned, trying to come up with a "less than lethal" solution is just asking for trouble. Either ignore him if you don't believe you are in danger, or use deadly force (shoot him) if you do. The middle ground becomes very muddy.

    It's just that, we can't pretend that there never is a middle ground. There IS potential to be in a situation where you can't ignore or walk away, but are a long way from being justified in drawing a gun and/or firing it.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    I carry pepper spray for dogs. Most times they will be doing only what is normal and natural for a dog to do. You can't fault them for that.

    I carry a Sig P220 for other types of predator. The kind who rob, rape, and murder. You can fault them for that.

    Be careful with pepper spray and dogs, sometimes it works, sometimes not...
    Heres another take on pepper spray;

    While your spraying away at your attacker, you have closed the reactionary gap, and made yourself more vulnerable. You may have or may not have stopped the attack. Also, don't be fooled into thinking that because your the one deploying the spray, your not going to get at least some of the effect, and once again, you have once again put yourself at a disadvantage.

    heres a little story that happened while at work last summer....
    a local nut was chasing his neighbor around the yard with a golf club...police are called and two arrive in short time.... I will be the third car on scene... BG turns his aggression toward the officers. As I am running through the rather large yard toward the fight, I watch one officer hose the BG down with spray, while the other officer deploys the stand and stare tactic, we won't go there... keep in mind this strong stuff, not the watered down junk sold in stores. BG keeps advancing. The first officer runs out of OC, toss the can and moves to his ASP, preparing to go to battle. Second Officer continues her original tactic.
    Seeing that officer one is having trouble engaging, I deploy my TASER and end the fight... for the moment. The OC had little effect on the bad guy, but was having all kinds of effect on the officer who deployed it. If his back up was far away, or not already on scene,(like in a citizen scenario) it would have been a bad day.
    My point is, while OC may be a decent option sometimes, it can quickly become a hindrance. Stick with the basics folks.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Me: In addition to what's been mentioned, faking a heart attack, especially if you're older, ups the ante. The attacker is suddenly faced with wanting money to possibly ending up with a dead person on his hands - at least in his mind.

    You:That makes about as much sense as encouraging women to carry "rape whistles."

    Me: I did not think of this. It comes from the writings of an undercover cop who played "victim" to street muggers so that observing officers could close in. It was published in a gun rag (yeah, I know, but this one made sense) about what to do when you cannot carry or when you cannot draw your piece. It made sense to me and still does.

    *****

    Me: As for OC, there is definitely a place for it in private citizen carry.

    Let's say, for example, that you are accosted by a beligerant individual who wishes to fight you for no apparent reason, or iffy reasons. The guy is about your height, weight and build.There is no disparity of force there. You cannot draw.


    You: if his behavior puts you in fear for your safety, do what you need to do. If he has ignored or refused to follow your verbal commands, then he is a threat regardless of your respective sizes.

    Me: So you're saying that a jury of my peers would not convict me if I just hauled iron and blasted everyone who was threatening? I really, really doubt I'd get off that lucky.

    *****

    Me: However, you are (or at least I am) scared to death of bloodborn pathogens. I'm a first dan in mixed martial arts, trained by an Army Ranger. I'm confident in my H2H abilities. However, I'm not confident in my immune system to fight HIV successfully. In other words, I don't want to fight this guy because our blood will mingle and I may end up with a terminal illness.

    HIV is something almost everyone understands, and I can see the defense appealing to the jury's fear of the AIDS epidemic should it even go that far.


    You: You're ASSuming that he has hiv/aids and that your blood is going to "mingle." I'm not saying I want to go swapping blood with someone but it's not a prevalent enough issue that I'm going to hesitate to go "hands on" if I have to. who says you're both going to end up all bloody?

    Me: No, I'm not assuming anything. I only know that bloodborn pathogens exist and I would no more go hand to hand with a stranger - unless not doing so would be even more dangerous - than I would perform CPR on a person without using a barrier, or advise unprotected sex with a stranger. "Who says we're both going to end up all bloody?" Who says we're not? You never know what the other guy is capable of. If you and I, for the sake of argument, ended up in a fight, no matter who was right, you'd of course whip out your Kenpo training. I would whip out my Aikido mix. You'd strike at nerve clusters and try to break things; I'd strike at nerve cluster ans try to break things. Skin would be abraided and lacerated. Noses would bleed. Don't get me wrong; I love the Arts. However, they can never be the definitive end-all, and neither can lethal force. There must be a stopgap measure since we're no longer, in most cases, allowed to "buffalo" a guy with the gun barrel.

    *****

    Me: I would warn, spray, then retreat to call paramedics and police. Getting it into action wouldn't be a question, as a person who is about to attack you usually postures first, or acts "funny" at least.

    You: usually but not always, once again you're making an assumption.

    Me: Yes, I'm making an assumption insofar as we who carry assume we'll be able to get our firearms into action when needed. If you practice with an inert cannister (expended, or better, practice) there should be no problems.

    Josh <><

  6. #65
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  7. #66
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    Alot of good asnswers and differing opinions.....

    ...but that is wht forums are all about.
    For along time I just packed a pistol, most times I had a small flashlight that I could also use as a yarweh.........but then I got into a 'situation' where I decided to add OC to my daily carry.
    I found the ASP Street or Key Defender to be an excellant and versatile. Not only do they pack some good OC with a positive locking device on the 'trigger', but it makes a great kubotan/yarweh stick.
    There are times when lethal force is not viable and you do not want to escalate the situation. The ASP give two options of defense in your hand, while you do nothing more menacing than hold your keys.
    I also feel that if you ever have to go to court, having had a less lethal option will be looked upon favorably.
    Me...an old marine grunt....I break contact...avoid potentially violent situations and stay aware. I walk away and do not return any of the insults some lower life form is using to try to get me to start something.....it a game to them....act macho, get you to start it and then hit you with a lawsuit later.
    If it looks like it is going to get real nasty, I transition the ASP to leve th strong hand free for Mr. Colt....and I start giving forceful verbal commands.
    If it goes beyond that, theory goes out the window and survival tasks over.
    I still carry a flashlight daily...the old Surefire 6P has been reassigned to sidemount duties on my AK, the NightOps Gladius, with its LED and strobe function has replaced it for carry.
    And I have an EDC blade daily/tool as well....cuz I try to stack the odds in my favor.....

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    Me: I did not think of this. It comes from the writings of an undercover cop who played "victim" to street muggers so that observing officers could close in. It was published in a gun rag (yeah, I know, but this one made sense) about what to do when you cannot carry or when you cannot draw your piece. It made sense to me and still does.
    how often are we going to have the luxury of backup when we're dealing with a potentially violent encounter...tactics employed in a "sting" operation are not going to be appropriate for a civilian self-defense situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    Me: So you're saying that a jury of my peers would not convict me if I just hauled iron and blasted everyone who was threatening? I really, really doubt I'd get off that lucky.
    No, that's not what I said, you're twisting my words out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    Me: No, I'm not assuming anything. I only know that bloodborn pathogens exist and I would no more go hand to hand with a stranger - unless not doing so would be even more dangerous - than I would perform CPR on a person without using a barrier, or advise unprotected sex with a stranger. "Who says we're both going to end up all bloody?" Who says we're not? You never know what the other guy is capable of. If you and I, for the sake of argument, ended up in a fight, no matter who was right, you'd of course whip out your Kenpo training. I would whip out my Aikido mix. You'd strike at nerve clusters and try to break things; I'd strike at nerve cluster ans try to break things. Skin would be abraided and lacerated. Noses would bleed. Don't get me wrong; I love the Arts. However, they can never be the definitive end-all, and neither can lethal force. There must be a stopgap measure since we're no longer, in most cases, allowed to "buffalo" a guy with the gun barrel.
    Once again, I didn't say I'm going to "square off" and fight the guy, I'm going to hit him preemptively and get out of dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    Me: Yes, I'm making an assumption insofar as we who carry assume we'll be able to get our firearms into action when needed. If you practice with an inert cannister (expended, or better, practice) there should be no problems.
    Josh
    ???
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  9. #68
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    You're ASSuming that he has hiv/aids and that your blood is going to "mingle." I'm not saying I want to go swapping blood with someone but it's not a prevalent enough issue that I'm going to hesitate to go "hands on" if I have to. who says you're both going to end up all bloody?

    usually but not always, once again you're making an assumption.

    But Ken, your making an assumption that your blood "wont" mingle.

    I would "assume" that in any fight, there is a good chance of "blood mingling", even if its only the BG thats bleeding.

    Ill take my chance and assume that HIV will be present in blood and stay away if i can.

    HIV, as well as the possibility of losing my weapon, are very real possibilities.

    I believe most of us would rather avoid any physical contact with a BG, and personally id prefer to use spray and/or my weapon than get close enough to touch the guy.

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dihappy View Post
    But Ken, your making an assumption that your blood "wont" mingle.

    I would "assume" that in any fight, there is a good chance of "blood mingling", even if its only the BG thats bleeding.

    Ill take my chance and assume that HIV will be present in blood and stay away if i can.

    HIV, as well as the possibility of losing my weapon, are very real possibilities.

    I believe most of us would rather avoid any physical contact with a BG, and personally id prefer to use spray and/or my weapon than get close enough to touch the guy.
    This discussion has gone from "he's not letting me leave so I'm going to drop him" to "we're both all bloody because we're in some sort of brawl."

    I never said that blood/bodily fluids aren't a consideration, and yes, if there's blood, I'm going to avoid it if I can simply because the BG might have something (HIV, HEP, etc). If I think I may have been contaminated, I'll go to the hospital.

    Getting in a "fight" with someone is never the prefered option, but the scenario we were discussing is one where someone is restricting your mobility but you may not have justification for deadly force (i.e. your firearm). In this case, if you have OC spray him and leave. If you don't have OC, hit the SOB and leave.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    Getting in a "fight" with someone is never the prefered option, but the scenario we were discussing is one where someone is restricting your mobility but you may not have justification for deadly force (i.e. your firearm). In this case, if you have OC spray him and leave. If you don't have OC, hit the SOB and leave.
    That's what I was saying! But it's preferable to have the distance OC provides, correct?

    I didn't mean to twist your words; I misunderstood you. For that I do apologize.

    The point of the article that got me thinking was that if you do something expected, you get inside their OODA loop. You know, observe, orient, decide, act. That's what the article was about. They don't expect you to act mentally challenged, or like you're having a heart attack, or start jumping up and down while screeching like a monkey. They expect you to be scared.

    This guy got quite a few injuries before his backup could respond. After he adopted these new ideas he quit getting hurt as often.

    I must also take exception with your statement that you would strike preemtively and retreat. How do you know what kind of effect your strike will have? How do you know he's not better in the martial arts than you are and will instinctively counter your blow and provide one of his own?

    I once found myself face to face with a drunk who wanted to fight me for the sake of fighting. I found this out when he hit me below the left eye. The only retreat was a door which opened inwards and whenever I'd throw the person across the room, he'd get right back up and charge me before I could get out the door. I finally used a few punches and dropped him. Yes, he was bloody from both landing on things and from my strikes. He couldn't move the next day, but during the time he was intoxicated, he did NOT respond AT ALL to pain compliance techniques or small joint manipulation. The only way I got out of the situation was to fire strikes to his nose, eyes, and I caught his fist on the tip of my elbow, finally getting through the fog of alcohol. He felt the pain in his hand, finally.

    Before you ask, this was at a pal's house and this was a new guy that started hanging around with us. After that night we saw his true violent tendencies and we shunned him, barring him from all activities and from my friend's house (he didn't know where I lived).

    That fight convinced me of two things: First, I don't like to fight, and second, I HATE fighting drunks. I later got a battery of tests done as well, HIV and such. Prudent.

    Strike and run? It'll likely work 99% of the time. However, there's still that 1% that you will find yourself against a guy that seems like Superman. It's the same reason we carry more than two shots in our pistols.

    Just too many variables, friend.

    Josh <><

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    That's what I was saying! But it's preferable to have the distance OC provides, correct?
    As I said, if you have it by all means, use it. The scenario to which I responded specifically asked what to do if you DID NOT have any less-lethal tools available (post #41 in this thread). This is where you took exception and started talking about fake heart-attacks and blood-borne pathogens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    The point of the article that got me thinking was that if you do something expected, you get inside their OODA loop. You know, observe, orient, decide, act. That's what the article was about. They don't expect you to act mentally challenged, or like you're having a heart attack, or start jumping up and down while screeching like a monkey. They expect you to be scared.
    Understanding the OODA Loop and being able to "derail" your opponents decision making process is, IMO, a critical part of the self-defense mindset. However, I submit that getting knocked on his butt is going to do more to interrupt his thought process than watching me dance around like a monkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    This guy got quite a few injuries before his backup could respond. After he adopted these new ideas he quit getting hurt as often.
    Once again, the difference is that he had backup on the way. His goal was not to get away, it was to buy time (survive long enough) for the other officers to arrive and arrest the BG. We don't have the luxury of imminent backup and we have no responsibilty (in most cases) to remain in the area. Our goal is to survive and escape with as little injury to ourselves as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith
    I must also take exception with your statement that you would strike preemtively and retreat. How do you know what kind of effect your strike will have? How do you know he's not better in the martial arts than you are and will instinctively counter your blow and provide one of his own? ....

    Strike and run? It'll likely work 99% of the time. However, there's still that 1% that you will find yourself against a guy that seems like Superman. It's the same reason we carry more than two shots in our pistols.
    How do I know what's going to happen? I don't. I can however tell you this: If I get a clean shot, the dude is not going to be a happy camper. If he is in a condition that raises his pain-tolerance (drugs, alcohol, or just an EDP), then he obviously poses more of a threat and I'll adjust my tactics as necessary.


    I'm done with this particular debate. I feel that I've clearly articulated my point and I don't see the need to continue the "Oh yeah, what if..." game.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Agreed sir.

    Josh <><

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