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Can *you* exercise non-lethal force?

5K views 71 replies 32 participants last post by  Joshua M. Smith 
#1 ·
I really can't, not yet anyway. Reading a lot of the things on this board has gotten me to thinking that if possible, it would behoove me to be able to project non-lethal force in addition to my pistol (i.e. pepper spray or something). Not all situations will give one time to use it, nor will the threat necessitate non-lethal force, but it seems to me a really good option to have available if a situation is developing that may require force or a show of force, but not quite (yet at least) to the point you have to draw a pistol. If I really get afraid of something about to happen, mr 9mm's coming out, but there are a lot of situations short of that where at least a good butt-whooping, serious injury, robbery or something else bad may about to happen too. Or, where there's a threat but it's ambiguous enough that drawing a handgun isn't necessarily called for based on what's visible.

For those of you who do keep other options open, what options do you carry? All I can think of is some sort of chemical or pepper spray, but what are the possiblities, short of being able to fight hand to hand or with some sort of martial arts?

And, not that I'd shirk from self-defense, but if it were possible to do something non-lethal first, even if it doesn't succeed in deterring the BG, wouldn't that be better for me so that I tried everything possible short of opening fire on an attacker?
 
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#3 ·
Other than hand-to-hand combat, no. I don't carry pepper spray, nor do I intend to.

I intend to avoid situations and try to de-escalate where possible. Failing that, I have my sidearm.

It's not my job to keep the BG safe from lethal threat, or to use escalting force as a cop would. Cops need to, as they must arrest the BG with as little force as necessary.
 
#5 ·
Other than hand-to-hand combat, no. I don't carry pepper spray, nor do I intend to.

I intend to avoid situations and try to de-escalate where possible. Failing that, I have my sidearm.

I had a situation the other day in which I was followed to my car by a guy who had been standing outside the door of the McDonald's I was just leaving.

He had called out something about, "Hey, can you do me a favor?" I wanted no part of it, having been there, done that with the local vagrants who always have some story (usually b.s.) about why they need your money. I just said, without turning to him, "Sorry, I can't help you," with a pretty dismissive air, I have to admit.

All of the sudden, I heard "MF this" and "MF that" :censored: coming from behind me, all mad because what, I'd "dissed" him? So I became alert. Pistol was in shoulder bag, his intentions unknown. Started saying vaguely threatening stuff that I now don't remember. I turned my head to get knowledge of exactly where he was, and said, "You don't want to :censored: with me, :censored:..." and walked on. It was a judgment call -- be meek and have him get assertive, or be assertive and let him know I'm not a victim to be picked on.

Well, he felt like rising to the occasion, and he started walking (not quickly) toward my car, as I did. I unlocked my car, and the first thing I did was reach in to the console and pull out a can of (literally) "Whoopass!" (a pepper spray I got at a local gun shop). But I didn't threaten him with it, I held it just out of sight mostly, but then he did see it. He had stopped his approach near the rear of my car, and was essentially just being an indignant black man who insisted on calling me racist terms like "cracker" -- literally! I got called "cracker"! :laughing:

So it was more like we were having an argument, than a real threatening situation. He started saying (almost incoherently) that he "EATS mace," kind of taunting me to go ahead and spray him. I was tempted. Heh. I didn't, though.

I told him that he needed to back off. I moved from between my open car door and the car (didn't want to be pinned there). He started giving me guff about how all he wanted was a favor, "Ain't nobody tryin'a rob you, crackuh!" (No, you're right, 'cause that person would have been shot by now.)

To try to de-escalate, I started asking him what this favor that he wanted was. He never did articulate that. At a point near there, I decided to get into my car and just bug out. He did not seem as though he was going to turn this physical.

I got into the car, and the guy kept saying about how "that's why you white boys get robbed!" (Why, because we don't engage strangers asking us for favors/money?) At no point did I say anything "racist," not even with him baiting me the way he was.

He started saying, through my window, that I had disrespected him, and that he was respecting me. I said, "Oh? The :censored: you've been saying, you call that 'respectful'?!" I backed out and drove off. He was shouting at me as I did, so I mouthed him an FU as I left.

Anyway, I found myself comforted by the pepper spray even though I didn't have to use it. I feel I could have done just fine in a fight with the guy (I'm not a big fighter but I'd be no slouch if I had to fight) and surely I could have shot him if the need had arisen, but there was a large gulf between what was going on, and the need to shoot someone!

What bridges that gulf? I think pepper spray can be what does the trick. That's why I have it on hand. I plan to get a smaller travel-size one so that I don't have to retrieve a larger one from the car's console.
 
#4 · (Edited)
And, not that I'd shirk from self-defense, but if it were possible to do something non-lethal first, even if it doesn't succeed in deterring the BG, wouldn't that be better for me so that I tried everything possible short of opening fire on an attacker?
My wife has pepper spray. I should probably get some too. I sure don't like the thought of using my hands as a weapon. I have to use my hands on the job. Also if I get in a fist fight the attacker could get the best of me and get my gun. Now the guy who had no leathal force does.

I read an article on self defense that said never go toe to toe. Learn to hit hard, hit first, and then run like heck. I think that is good advice. I'd still be worried about breaking my hand.

BTW I bought a heavy bag last week and have been beating it up just to get some punch conditioning. I kick it too.
 
#6 ·
nope, your asking for trouble by having less than lethal force available.
You are opening yourself to all kinds of wrongfull death lawsuits etc., when/if you don't exhaust all your options before you shoot. We both know that 96% of the encounters there is no time for a use of force "ladder".
 
#7 ·
pepper spray, H2H and other stuff too. The more ya know , the better off ya are.
peacefuljeffrey, I suggest a tactical withdrawl instead of conversation next time.
 
#10 ·
I definitely learned some things that time.

I have not had the time, money, opportunity to avail myself of real, professional training on this kind of thing. Much of my learning about these situations, and how to handle them, has come from attentive digesting of discussions that take place on boards like this one, as well as magazine articles. (I haven't yet delved into the myriad books on the subject, but I plan to.)

Learning also takes place in real life situations -- and you give thanks when you come through them having made mistakes that didn't cost too dearly. Fortunately, there's often some leeway.
 
#8 ·
PeacefulJeff,
Your situation is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about. Even if the guy had rushed you, in the eyes of the law (even in FL where you supposedly don't have to retreat anymore) you probably wouldn't be justified in shooting him as he hasn't threatened with a weapon. What are you supposed to do then? i don't know. Kind of what I think of about knowing what the law says, not what it ought to say. (I'm not looking for trouble and I don't think I ought to be in trouble for shooting someone threatening or attacking me and leaving me with only my gun or a fistfight. But, I know the law doesn't see it that way) I don't know if there's any legally good answer other than a physical struggle during which you might not be able to retain your piece. But a legally good answer doesn't seem to fit too well either. To de-escalate, if I'm alone in your situation I guess I could retreat away from my car, and call 911 on the cell. But that would really chap my ass, it sure isn't fair that even in a no-retreat state like FL the only option I'm left with is to leave some dirtbag with my car?

Some sort of pepper spray sounds like something handy to have. True about the possibility of wrongful death lawsuits, but I think you're open to that regardless. Also opens up the possibility of grabbing for the pepper spray and losing valuable seconds when you ought to be grabbing for your gun. Unfortunately, there often isn't any way out of situations without some sort of risk, maybe this is one of them?
 
#11 · (Edited)
Some sort of pepper spray sounds like something handy to have. True about the possibility of wrongful death lawsuits, but I think you're open to that regardless. Also opens up the possibility of grabbing for the pepper spray and losing valuable seconds when you ought to be grabbing for your gun. Unfortunately, there often isn't any way out of situations without some sort of risk, maybe this is one of them?
I think you just answered your own question...it'd be a bad deal if you took the time to deploy your OC only to realize you really needed a more decisive option.

Other than at work, I don't personally carry OC. If I need a "less-lethal" option, I've got my H2H training. However, I can also escalate to deliver deadly-force with my empty-hand stuff if necessary. Beyond that, I carry knives and a pistol. If I'm unable to de-escalate, then they were probably intent on attacking me anyway and I'm going to be "in fear of death or serious bodily harm" and respond accordingly.

edit: I don't have a problem with OC as long as people understand its limitations. I see it as a tool to use when people are belligerent but not actually combative (yet). In that situation, it could take the fight out of them, or buy you time to escape or to access a more effective option.
 
#12 ·
Your situation is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about. Even if the guy had rushed you, in the eyes of the law (even in FL where you supposedly don't have to retreat anymore) you probably wouldn't be justified in shooting him as he hasn't threatened with a weapon. What are you supposed to do then? i don't know
Exactly. That "I don't know" area is hard to tackle. That's why I got pepper spray in the first place. There is a huge gulf between angry words and shooting someone dead! In this case, if I could have just driven off I would have -- but I had to deal with the fact that an angry man was coming after me, from behind, and I did not yet know if he was going to charge my back as I sat down into my car (a very vulnerable position for me to be in).

I think I did some things right in this case. I kept aware of where he was all the time. I didn't start cursing back at him, except for the initial insistence that he didn't want to dance with me. I didn't go right for a gun. I kept my movement options open once I realized to get out of the car doorway. I suppose I should have put the spray can in my weak hand, though. (I had it in my strong hand.)

Live and learn. Fortunately, I can build on what I learned in this situation since it did not end badly.

One thing that pleased me to no end was that I did NOT find myself ending up with much in the way of adrenalin jitters. I was pretty calm and cool, even in the immediate aftermath as I drove away. The only sign I felt that I had the slightest nervousness was that my clutch leg was a little shaky when I had to keep the pedal depressed at a long traffic light. I even was alert to see if the guy was anywhere near the corner where I waited at the light outside the McDonald's exit. (He was nowhere to be seen by that point.)
 
#13 · (Edited)
I wonder if spraying someone with pepper spray is concidered assault. It seems that even if you spray some guy who is just talking tough, that he could accuse you of assaulting him for no good reason.

They taught is in security work that if you spray you are responsible for the persons safty after wards. So if you spray and run off, and the guy wanders out into traffic.................why am I always thinking worse case?
 
#58 ·
I wonder if spraying someone with pepper spray is concidered assault. It seems that even if you spray some guy who is just talking tough, that he could accuse you of assaulting him for no good reason.

Yes, in most states it would be considered assault. If you couldn't prove that you had a good reason for believing he was about to assault you in some way, you could be in trouble if he pressed charges.

As far as I'm concerned, trying to come up with a "less than lethal" solution is just asking for trouble. Either ignore him if you don't believe you are in danger, or use deadly force (shoot him) if you do. The middle ground becomes very muddy.
 
#14 ·
My girlfriend carries a can of pepper spray, because she doesn't carry a gun. I carry a gun, because I can't carry a cop. It's not my job to engage people on a confrontational manner for any reason. Leave me alone. If you confront me with words, I'm backing down and leaving if at all possible. If you confront me with physical violence, all options are open at that point. I don't carry a defensive knife, defensive OC or defensive handcuffs. I carry a defensive 9mm. End of story.
 
#17 ·
Without telling a long story, about three weeks ago I got into a situation where OC would have been a great tool. Some years ago, I could have handled this bare-handed...but six years of chemo and other drugs, plus the disease itself, have taken the strength from me. It was not a situation where I should have drawn the Glock.

So, I promptly bought some spray, in the form of an ASP Palm Defender ($28.95), just like my wife carries. http://www.streichers.com/ProductList.aspx?catalog=Law+Enforcement&category=PALM_IRRIT

If I walk in a lot or ramp, it is in my left hand, leaving the right hand free to draw.

I've always carried a 4 ounce spray can in the console, but now I've got a small supply in my left jacket/pants pocket, and feel better for it...:yup:
 
#18 ·
...So, I promptly bought some spray, in the form of an ASP Palm Defender
If I walk in a lot or ramp, it is in my left hand, leaving the right hand free to draw.

I've always carried a 4 ounce spray can in the console, but now I've got a small supply in my left jacket/pants pocket, and feel better for it...:yup:
If I were going to carry it, that's the method I'd choose. You have the ability to spray as well as to strike if necessary.
 
#20 ·
From the perspective of private security -- including bodyguarding and executive protection --- it is good to have some non-lethal options to control a situation before using deadly force.

Awareness and avoidance always precede any methods first, of course. Then, verbal and psychological methods are attempted, then if you need to, some unarmed methods like arm locks can get the point across to the nuisance maker. And yeah, you'd better be prepared, trained and competent in these things or the situation could go south in a hurry.

I don't use it myself, but a stun gun might be good to get the nuisance maker's attention, even if just to make some noise. OC pepper spray is good if the situation escalates. A baton or striking implement is good. Also some unarmed strikes would be good, but again, if you're reasonably skilled.

Then, if you have no choice and there is imminent danger, you have your firearm, of course.
 
#22 ·
My take on it.

Whenever this topic is discussed, someone always says that if you CWW and carry pepper spray, and are involved in a shooting, the prosecutor will make the argument that you should have used the pepper spray first or instead of lethal force hence landing you hard time. Well, if you CCW and don't carry pepper spray, who says the prosecutor won't make the argument that as a responsible CCW'er you should have carried pepper spray so that you'd have an LTL alternative rather than arming yourself solely with deadly force?

It is impossible to predict what may happen in the aftermath of a self-defense shooting. There are far too many variables. It depends on the DA, the environment of the PD. Is it an election year and elected officials want to appear tough on crime?

As is probably obvious by now, I'm a proponent of pepper spray. Unfortunately, none of us are able to predict or control with any certainty exactly how our own self-defense scenario will play out if we are ever involved in one. Based on many responses in this and other forums about this same topic, it is clear that many people believe that if they are ever involved in a situation requiring SD it will be clearcut, the BG's intentions will be clear, he WILL have a weapon of some kind, and lethal force will be justified and thusly applied. But...this just ain't so. Just as there are many variables in the aftermath of an SD shooting, there are many variables involved before and during an SD encounter.

My own personal experience - About four years ago, I'm 99% certain that I was the intended victim of a mugging or...maybe something worse. The person rapidly approaching and verbally engaging me was not displaying a weapon. Fortunately, I was able to escape by crossing the road. (He was visibly very angry about that.) The road was one of the busy main roads in Kingman, AZ, and had four lanes with a center turn lane. It just happened that there was a break in traffic that allowed me to cross. Had there not been that break in traffic, then I would have had to resort to other options. Since he was not displaying a weapon, I would NOT have been justified in using deadly force. He may have had a weapon but you can not employ deadly force against someone because of what they might have.

Another case for pepper spray involves crowded places. You're down at the local carnival and someone attacks you. Do you shoot? Maybe, maybe not. Remember, we're responsible for every piece of copper and lead.

Yet, another case for pepper spray involves belligerent people. Maybe they're drunk, maybe they're not quite "all there" and don't pose a deadly threat but they may need to be dealt with. This is where pepper spray may be helpful. Pepper spray by itself will not bruise, cut, break bones, etc. That is a much safer way to deal with, for example, a person that is mentally handicapped, mildly violent, and not of sufficient size and strength to pose a serious threat.

Some may think that there is a very slim chance of the scenarios that I've presented actually happening. True, the chances are very slim. But aren't the chances of any of us needing to fire our weapons in SD also slim?

I'm not advocating that we should carry with us all the tools of the force continuum like an LEO; pepper spray, baton, Taser, bean bag gun, sidearm, etc. but I don't think pepper spray is silly or going overboard for a non-LEO.

That's my nickel's worth.
 
#23 ·
Pepper spray does have its uses. Not every altercation is going to require a firearm. A blast of pepper spray might be just what you need to help escape the situation. If that doesn't work then you act accordingly. Just assure you go home at the end of the day.
 
#25 ·
I have pepper spray around, and often on me for the four footed hazards as well. If I cap an aggresive dog in town, I'm facing a world of headaches including carry through and ricochetes. The spray will end the problem quickly. I like having options as well. I know from past experiences that I sum up situations under severe stress well, it's one reason I'm still living. Not every situation calls for a firearm, not every one even calls for OC. Sometimes acting mild will solve it, sometimes acting tough. In the end it's the most important thing to get back home to my family though and for that I like options.
 
#28 ·
Yes, to a degree, depending on your point of view.

IMO, our "weapons" range from firearms & knives on the lethal end, to traditional non-lethal alternatives such as pepper spray, kubotan, flashlight (butt) or keys (sharp), as well as our tactics and wits. These can reach out and "touch" someone in many cases just as effectively as an overt weapon. I strongly feel that tatics and wits are the oft-forgotten powerhouse skills in the non-lethal category. Not overt weapons, as such, but just as powerful to be able to draw down a situation to sane (if not rational) levels that allow extrication from a situation. Physical limitations preclude my use of fists/moves beyond a couple of basics for very long. I opt not to carry sprays, taser or common non-lethal items. I believe that non-lethal situations can generally be managed sufficiently, and that too many tools for a person can lead to hesitation if it goes postal and requires lethal force to terminate.

So, where does that leave me? Minus a couple of tools some would deem appropriate, I suppose, but I strongly leverage simple control (via tactics) over most situations and have excellent "radar," which have together helped keep things manageable and safe for more than a dozen years, now. In-and-out, high-intensity radar, scouting unknown fields in advance of jumping in, always having a hand free, never believing my first order of business is anything other than keeping myself alive and safe, being circumspect at all times when on the street ... each of these go a long way toward safety and security.
 
#29 ·
I generally think that pepper spray is not a very good idea for someone who carries. First of all, there is a lot of difference in sprays, and the generic pepper spray doesn't do a lot to a determined attacked besides tick em off. They can't see very well but they can attack.

The stuff that really disables them is illegal to carry in Michigan, so it's not really an option for me.

On top of that, if I'm worried enough to pepper spray a guy, I will be worried enough to ready my draw hand and warn him off. If escalated, I will draw. If a guy comes at me after a warning AND a draw, then he is approaching an armed person with itent to do bodily harm. Depending on distance, I MAY warn him one more time, but anyone stupid enough to attack an armed man after being warned is NOT someone I want to go H2H with and risk losing my firearm. I'd rather NOT be armed than go H2H in that situation.

Pepper spray is ok for people not carrying or in situations where you are trying to break up a fight in which you are not involved. Other than that, I would and do avoid.

Please, it's hard enough to keep my pants up as it is without adding another thing to my Batman Utility Belt.
 
#30 ·
Good discussion. I agree with katmandoo re: a warned attacker. However, I see the value of OC when faced with stray dogs on your neighborhood walk, or those occasions when you can't carry your side arm. You can also place a can of OC in your hand as you walk to the car in a garage (or anywhere) and it not be percieved as brandishing. When surprised by a close attack, spray in the hand is mighty quick to deploy. I just think OC has it's place. Do I carry it regularly? ....Nope, but starting to think more seriously about it.
 
#35 ·
This is what I referred to in my previous reply to this thread; people thinking that they have it all worked out as to exactly how any situation they're involved in will work out.

What if the person is not displaying a weapon, is just beligerent, and is not letting you leave by stepping in front of you no matter which direction you try to leave? What if the person is between you and your car? Depending on what the area is like, walking away from the person and your car may put you in even greater danger. Maybe there are other shady characters in the background watching to see what develops. My job requires me to go all over Arizona which puts me into some less than desirable areas. I can not simply choose not to go to certain places. There is a job to be done and I must do it. That being said however, these situations also happen in desirable areas.

In your case, you say that non-lethal devices are illegal in CT. So...the government has graciously made your decision for you. But in areas where LTL devices are legal, I believe they have a place.
 
#32 ·
Sometimes acting mild will solve it, sometimes acting tough.
Well, in my case I chose "acting tough" -- or, at least, resolute -- but as it happened that did not discourage this particular guy, it egged him on. You just can't know which one will be the best, you go with your gut.

The reason I don't like to even get into a discussion with... well, beggars, is because they immediately put you into an uncomfortable position where you have to listen to their b.s. story, then either hand them money and feel like you got bullied into it, or deny them money and have to deal with them possibly getting agitated.

I really don't know what this guy's "favor" was that he wanted to ask me. What I do know is that once he was denied, his demeanor toward me proved to me that he was not a fellow I would have cared much for helping. If a person is asking for charity and gets angry and abusive when he doesn't get it, how deserving is he really?

Now, he may have asked for a lift somewhere. I would absolutely have declined. He might have gotten just as angry then, even if I had done so politely. He might have asked for money, which is what I suspected he would do, and I was in no mood to have to give it to him. He might have asked for simple directions; but then there is no way to know whether something like that is a ploy or setup, possibly putting me into more danger from accomplices and whatnot.

I still believe in keeping the option of pepper spray around, for reasons already stated. It may be reallllly ambiguous whether a gun is warranted. I have my "training" in the form of what I have read of the law, and the CCW class I took. It sucks, but we really do have to allow ourselves to come under a pretty certain threat before we would not get ourselves in trouble for drawing and brandishing a gun...
 
#33 ·
Well, in my case I chose "acting tough" -- or, at least, resolute -- but as it happened that did not discourage this particular guy, it egged him on. You just can't know which one will be the best, you go with your gut.
Here's a line I've used in the past...

Loudly

"Are you talking to me? If you are I'm sorry but I'm almost totally deaf and I don't have my hearing aid. Can't understand a thing you're saying. Have a nice day" Then walk away. If nothing else it confuses them while you make it to your vehicle.
 
#36 ·
AZ Dog, the scenario you describe would be scary.
Being accosted by a belligerent but as-yet not violent person whom you fear might use violence, having no LTL option, not being allowed past him...

Just how would you all handle this kind of thing? How would it stand up, legally, to draw a firearm in such a case, when all the guy has been doing so far is putting himself between you and the way out, possibly verbally taunting you?

He's committing a crime, yes. Assault, possibly, and possibly wrongful imprisonment (or whatever they'd call it when someone disallows you freedom of movement). But he has not threatened your safety or your life, or produced a weapon to put you in fear of either. But of course you can't stand there all day continuing to try to meekly walk off in yet a different direction only to have him block you.

Do you draw, and say, "You are preventing me from leaving freely, and intimidating me, causing me to fear for my safety. Your actions are belligerent, and you force me to have to defend myself. Get the :censored: out of my way now or I will be forced to fire!"?

I can't figure this one out...
 
#37 ·
A

Just how would you all handle this kind of thing? How would it stand up, legally, to draw a firearm in such a case, when all the guy has been doing so far is putting himself between you and the way out, possibly verbally taunting you?
You call the police and or return to the store/restaurant. You also ready yourself for a quick draw and scan in directions to make sure there is no accomplice while making sure you maintain distance. It really doesn't matter how dangerous (or not dangerour) the area is. Until you are confronted with the threat or reality of physical force, it would be un-wise to draw. At most, I would place my draw hand on my weapon while gesturing and verbalizing him away from me.

Encounters like this either escalate or de-escalate...they do not maintain. It's not like you would be there three hours later still trying to convince the guy to move...:tumbleweed:
 
#38 ·
That is a great one ELCruusr:rofl: :rofl: , I think I might have to borrow that.
When I was uniformed, it was manditory. Plain Clothes it was optional. Now no less than lethal on me, other than my brain, if that will not get me out of the situation, provide me an exit, or diffuse the situation and it is absolutely necessary, then I will do what I have to...........
 
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