Non-lethal option to gun - Pepper Spray, OC Spray, Mace, whatever you call it?

This is a discussion on Non-lethal option to gun - Pepper Spray, OC Spray, Mace, whatever you call it? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Jemsaal The problem comes though, when a person is not sure if he or she can take someone else's life. That's not ...

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Thread: Non-lethal option to gun - Pepper Spray, OC Spray, Mace, whatever you call it?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    The problem comes though, when a person is not sure if he or she can take someone else's life. That's not a "liberal" thing. I have strong conservative friends who know they couldn't do it either. In that case, isn't it better to know your limitations and arm yourself appropriately? Moreover, there are places that you can't enter armed, but you can enter with pepper spray. Isn't better to be somewhat armed, then not armed at all?
    Im not against non lethal options for those disposed to carry them. But if a person isnt sure they are willing to use lethal force and take a person life if forced to to protect themselves they should not be carrying a firearm. To do so doubting that you can bring yourself to use it only puts that firearm at the BGS disposal to use on you should your not lethal means fail. Which they do with alarming regularity.

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  3. #47
    Member Array gun1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordofwyr View Post
    My recommendation is that if you are going into bear territory, carry something easily accessible that throws ample lead down range in caliber sizes that can stop a Polar Bear, just in case. Better yet, have several friends with you that are also packing sizable firearms and send a wall of lead at the attacking creatures. Bears do not play fair. They play to win, and you should do the same.
    What would you consider "ample lead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by KyBill View Post
    Our instructor taught our class that in Ky the license is as you describe, permitting concealed carry of deadly weapons including I believe brass nuckles, nunchaks, batons, etc. But the actual course content was geared towards handguns, range qualification and several hours of video and discussion centered on KY statures and when the use of deadly force was justified.
    We had an attorney come in and do a 2 hour segment on law surrounding guns and the use of deadly force. The way it was explained to us, at least here, and the way the segment was presented to us, was we needed to know the law first to understand what a CCW license did in the face of those laws. The first thing is it doesn't make the laws disappear. Essentially it grants you the ability to carry a concealed, loaded gun in places where otherwise not blanket-law covered (except for government buildings, and private property where signs are posted - the ubiquitous "gun free zone", which I won't get in to here). Examples of laws that are present that still apply, no matter what: You can't shoot across a road way, you can't shoot within city limits, you can't shoot towards buildings/vehicles, you can't shoot within a certain distance of school property, and I'm sure I am missing a few. I took about 6 pages of notes through the segment. Maybe I should have used a voice recorder.

    To add to the above list, we have a "duty to retreat", except when inside our home or legally occupying that of someone else (a guest at a friends house, for example), and it is stressed to use non-lethal force first. Note that I didn't mention a vehicle there - there is no castle doctrine like in Texas - our duty to retreat applies to vehicles too, and vehicles are "property" for which we can not use deadly force to protect either, only if someone breaks in to our home can we shoot to protect - because we are protecting people, property isn't a person. We can not "escalate" a conflict, and we can't be engaged in the conflict, as everything we do to stop a threat has to purely be in the form of self-defense, or defense of someone incapable of doing so (your kid, your wife, a friend). The catch to this is the display of a firearm in a conflict alone is "use of deadly force" and "escalating" a conflict. So if I am spraying a couple people down with pepper spray in one hand and have my pistol in my other as a "backup" - just the fact that the gun is unholstered and displayed has escalated the conflict and if the pepper spray does the job, I already have my gun out in my hand, and I have already done as much in the eyes of the law as throwing the pepper spray in the garbage and using lead instead.

    As it was also put to us is there is no "clean cut", "black and white" answer as to what is "justified" and what is not. The answer was a completely open-ended, opinion-based answer:

    "it is up to the particular jury, on the particular day, under the particular circumstances, in the particular environment" whether or not they find your use of deadly force justifiable.

    Again, everything you do here with a firearm except it being concealed in your holster is illegal - CCW is not a license to shoot. All the same laws regarding discharging a firearm still apply. - it is up to the "finders of fact" to illustrate and back up your series of events, as well as the jury appointed to hear your case to decide that you were in the right and your use of deadly force was "justified".

    In that judicial process it is a good idea to be articulate, and if not (most cases I am not, especially under stress), you better be detailed and good at documenting. If you can write down your series of events as they are fresh in your head with detail you might serve a better chance. As part of those details, at least where I am, I better have that "use of non-lethal force" and evidence of "retreating" to escape the threat, as well as having as potent of a position of not being engaged in and escalating the conflict as I can WELL DOCUMENTED.

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array KyBill's Avatar
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    In KY there is no duty to retreat, whether at home or on the street. But if you do have the ability to retreat safely you are sure to avoid a potentially painful legal process. In your home ( here) you are legally solid to use deadly force in the case of a home invasion. Unless the bad guy is on his way out the window - you cant use deadly force once the imminent threat has been eliminated. You also cannot use deadly force outside your home for trespassing or to protect property ( except in the case of protecting your home/outbuildings from arson). And I'm pretty sure that business owners have some additional latitude within their business location. But justication in terms of the law only prevents criminal conviction, you can still be sued in a civil proceeding.

  5. #49
    New Member Array AdvocateWomensD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Sounds interesting! Personally I view pepper as something thats hit or miss. Frankly I wish if a women was in the process of violent attack her first call would be for an ambulance because the attacker has suffered a case of extreme lead poisoning. And all she needs the police for is to process the scene and get the guys profile so they can remove him from the wanted list, and either place him in jail or process him through the cites mortuary department. However, I do understand pepper spray and its purpose for situations in which carrying a firearm is not legally allowed. I just don't have that much faith in cell phones. Having personally been the victim of road rage on route 81, being chased by a maniac 18 wheeler, calling 911 numerous times only to have dropped calls, and getting told by the state police that we should be calling the roanoke 911. This went on for over one hour driving down the road. However, good luck with your product.

    Wow, what a nightmare situation. I am thinking that this could be a situation where our monitoring service can really provide some needed assurance. They make the 911 call on your behalf. So in this situation, the service would pinpoint your location via GPS, and contact the appropriate emergency group with all of your information. Now, obviously if your cell coverage was poor enough to prevent the alert getting to the monitoring service, end of story. No solution is perfect, and we've tried to make this as strong of a solution as possible, and I think in this situation it would have helped, at least in contacting the best emergency service to come to your aid.

  6. #50
    New Member Array AdvocateWomensD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gun1 View Post
    I understand what you are saying. I have a lot of experience cross-country traveling and know what you're saying about cell coverage and being transferred to the wrong dispatch center (I have experienced both on separate occasions, the latter about 2 weeks before Thanksgiving).

    However, I think there may be a whole world of smartphone technology that you are not aware of. If you pay any attention to TED conferences you will note that there hare been some interesting photo technologies that have been demonstrated. The two that I remember over the past couple years was a technology that combined GPS with pictures in that when a picture was taken of a landmark it would be combined with other pictures on a server and produce a 3D rendering of that landmark. Another was the real-time 3D glasses, might have been part of a Google project, that allowed the participants with the "glasses" to share experiences. In the demonstration that was done there was a "relay" set up between a sky diver and the guy sitting in front of an audience of about 500 people (plus the cameras) that had everyone that was part of it (every stage of the relay - guy jumping out of plane and the 3-4 other steps getting from the roof of the building to the room of the presentation) wearing the special glasses so the whole event was broadcast on the screen the presenter had.

    How does that relate to self-defense? Combine a can of pepper spray with a camera. Just like the technology that allows the 3D rendering of landmarks - when you release the pepper spray the camera takes pictures. The pictures are uploaded to a server. The authorities are alerted.

    I don't get in to the "smartphone craze" like some do, but I am aware of some of the technologies that are surrounding the use of them - enough that I can relate to the direction AdvocateWomensD is going with combining the smartphone technology with self-defense.


    I don't want to be negative in any way, I certainly would encourage the development of such a technology to offer to the self-defense industry, but what I would also say, having said that, is that the technology on the surface, in the idea or form of which it is being developed in, may not be what you end up with. All the roads that you go down and the obstacles that you overcome will ultimately guide the end result. I can see populated areas (cities, suburbs) where this technology would have a higher following. It may even be something that takes off in areas like NYC and Chicago where concealed carry of firearms is not allowed (the whole state of Illinois for that matter). Those could even be higher areas of marketing effort to look in to as well.

    Last comment - no matter what device or technology that you bring to self-defense - there has to be adequate training, and proof-of-concept, to be effective. It also has to be something that is functional when the operator encounters an extremely high stress situation. Fine motor skills are gone in high stress. I don't think swiping the screen of a smartphone would be immune (maybe for some, but not the general population) to that. Whatever form the device takes would have to be something that could be operated with no fine motor skill. Good practice - dunk your hands in ice water for 5-10 minutes then try it. Feeling is gone, movements become coarse, etc.
    Great post! This is what attracted me to the company the combination of smartphone technology in a self-defense situation pepper spray being the deterrent component, smartphone technology being the communication vehicle for loved ones and authorities including a camera that may increase the odds of capturing an assailant. I am so glad I joined this forum because i am here to learn and there are ideas that I can take to the company that will help to improve and refine what will be a part of our offerings eventually. We are getting very close to having a fully working prototype and are going to be bringing this to kickstarter for funding. Once we are there i will give you a heads up! Looking forward to hearing from you after you have had a chance to take a look at this!

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array royal barnes's Avatar
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    I carry pepper spray gel in addition to my firearm(s). Nunchuks, brass knucks, batons and the like are ulawful for concealed carry in my state. Tasers are too large and a stun gun requires me being within arms reach of my opponent. Many here have said they are not going to carry non-lethal. Your choice but I'm 68 years old and too crippled up to fight anyone more intimidating than a drunk pygmy. Pepper spray gives me an option short of deadly force. I hear a lot of talk about how people will just "fill 'um full of lead". If you have never been in a deadly force situation it's all speculation. If you have you don't want to go there again. I have been there and I will never be the same.

  8. #52
    New Member Array AdvocateWomensD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royal barnes View Post
    I carry pepper spray gel in addition to my firearm(s). Nunchuks, brass knucks, batons and the like are ulawful for concealed carry in my state. Tasers are too large and a stun gun requires me being within arms reach of my opponent. Many here have said they are not going to carry non-lethal. Your choice but I'm 68 years old and too crippled up to fight anyone more intimidating than a drunk pygmy. Pepper spray gives me an option short of deadly force. I hear a lot of talk about how people will just "fill 'um full of lead". If you have never been in a deadly force situation it's all speculation. If you have you don't want to go there again. I have been there and I will never be the same.
    A post infused with life experiences. Thank you for sharing.... true grit. I hope to hear more from you as our developments progress,
    best wishes royal barnes!

  9. #53
    Member Array ruger91's Avatar
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    i know im reviving this couple day old thread and im not sure if its been discussed yet but its it legal to use bear spray instead onf regular mace on a human? i was reading and article and it said when they tested bear spray on a human it made their skin instantly blistered and they had to be rushed to the hospital - not saying im would feel bad for a BG but this is for my wife until she recieves her permit and i wouldnt want to be the cause of her getting in trouble if anything happened when she could have just used mace and been fine. thanks

    - i have also read mace is different that pepper spray, if that is true, which is more effective?
    ruger91


    NRA member

  10. #54
    New Member Array AdvocateWomensD's Avatar
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    Background Research

    Hey guys and gals!

    So excited about a new product about to come on the market...in the final design phase now with release date of late August. I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK PLEASE
    For a pepper spray type gun device...would you prefer something shaped like a small smart phone device? or something thinner like say a writing pen(a large writing pen)? These are the 2 basic types of designs we are looking at. The final product will have some blue tooth type technology built in, but I won't go into a lot of details on that. What I really need to/want to know is, in the heat of the moment...which design do you think would be favorable? Both designs would have a holster for carrying. The initial target market for this new device will be female college students that have a smart phone...so it's probably good to keep that in mind. The purpose of the device would be to ward off an attacker. Which design to think would be easiest to use or most beneficial? Any/All feedback would be greatly appreciated!! Pros? Cons? Things to consider? Safety concerns? Would love to get your feedback!!

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    A pen that looked like a fountain pen would be easy to conceal, and wouldn't draw attention when it was taken out.. just sayin'
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array KyBill's Avatar
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    My daughter is getting her driver license and attending college beginning August. I havent decided if pepper spray is the best route but my thought is no bluetooth or electronics needed, just one more thing to fail. Keychain or pants pocket or bra holster for a girl ( my kid shoves the iphone in her bra, no phone holster). Lots of guys have shirt pockets so a pen mght be good for a guy but not so many women and you don't want to be rummaging in a pocketbook for a spray pen if you suddenly need it. If the shape is tubular maybe harden and mold the non spray end like the tip of a tactical pen so its a multipurpose weapon? Just my thoughts.

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    KyBill, my mother has no interest in carrying a firearm, although she is anything but anti-gun, so to ease my mind, I got her a taser that can recharge from a wall outlet, and OC that hangs from her keychain now. Damsel In Defense sells both. Great products.

    Home

    Above is a link to their page. The OC has UV dye in it to mark the person sprayed, and the taser I bought has a pin insert attached to the lanyard, so if she has the lanyard around her wrist, and the stun gun is taken from her, once the pin is pulled from the device, it cannot be used against her, because without the pin inserted, the taser is disabled.
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

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