NUTS>> Employee handbook ends a good thing.

This is a discussion on NUTS>> Employee handbook ends a good thing. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; With the increased violence in today’s society, XXXXX has adopted guidelines to deal with intimidation, harassment, or other threats and violence that may occur. XXXXXX ...

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Thread: NUTS>> Employee handbook ends a good thing.

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    Member Array kastiron's Avatar
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    NUTS>> Employee handbook ends a good thing.

    With the increased violence in today’s society, XXXXX has adopted guidelines to deal with intimidation, harassment, or other threats and violence that may occur. XXXXXX management wants to help resolve employee disputes, and will not discipline employees for raising such concerns. On the other hand, we will not tolerate threats, coercion, intimidation, harassment or violence of any kind. We promptly investigate complaints in this area and we will take appropriate disciplinary action.
    Employees should treat each other with courtesy and respect. There should be no fighting, "horseplay," or other dangerous conduct. Firearms, weapons, and other hazardous devices or substances are not allowed on XXXXXX property without proper authorization.


    Now without getting into too much detail, most of my perceived threat and reason for carrying revolves around the potential for workplace violence. Employee parking is on public streets, within 15 feet of corporate buildings, and some of the labor employees may or may not be considered "stable". Also, it has been not-so-joked about that a firm Drug Abuse policy such as testing could affect production employee count by as much as 60%...

    Now, the obvious question.. Can I reasonably make a case to the company ownership that they should allow proper CCW as per the state laws, or is the wording of the last sentence mean that Proper authorization refers to state law? I hesitate to even ask because there can only be one reason a person would ask about the specific wording and I prefer to keep the "concealed" just the way it has been.

    Company size is under 100 people, less than 10 in the office atmosphere where I work. I don't like the idea of parking my 2A rights on the street, but I guess it is better than losing an otherwise good job.

    Any suggestions on starting a discussion without giving myself up?

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  3. #2
    Member Array abuttermilk's Avatar
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    Do they have a Questions or Suggestions box you could anonymously drop a question in? Hope so!
    Andy

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    My company won't even let you park on their property if you have any kind of gun in your car, even in a gun safe!

    But, even though I don't like it, it's a condition of employment!
    Some may advise you to ignore the rules but like it or not, that's just not honest and when you took that job, you agreed to obey the rules. For me, that's my word, and if I couldn't live with not carrying then the only option to me would be to quit!

    I don't think you'll get anywhere trying to get the policy changed but it doesn't hurt to try.

    Oh yeah, here's a good product to consider: http://www.center-of-mass.com/

    That's just my opinion, I know you'll get a lot more. You're the only one who can make this decission. I hope I've helped provide a little perspective for ya!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

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    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    As long as your work place is not an "off limits place" according to your state or local laws, my advice is to continue to carry and not mention anything.

    In the event you are asked about your sidearm (should never come up if it is properly concealed unless you have to use it), you could claim that you interpreted the "without proper authorization" to be a reference to your permit from the state. I am fairly sure this is NOT what they mean, but if asked I am sure you could easily form a rational defense based on this mind set.

    Worst case scenario, you need to look for a new job. It is better to be alive and out of work than follow the company rules and be another dead employee.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

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    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
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    "gun? what gun? That's just my colostomy bag, wanna see it?"

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    Worst case scenario, you need to look for a new job. It is better to be alive and out of work than follow the company rules and be another dead employee.
    +1 for the PolarBear. I'm lucky, my bosses pack from time to time, I think one does all the time.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kastiron View Post
    Firearms, weapons, and other hazardous devices or substances are not allowed on XXXXXX property without proper authorization.
    I would say that you ARE properly authorized according to state law. But then it's easy for me to say that because it's not my job. All things being equal, I would carry in your position, but that's MY call. You'll have to decide for yourself just like everyone else. I would only talk to management if you know that the answer is going to be in your favor. Otherwise I, personally, (again only me) would go the "better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission" route.

    Quote Originally Posted by kastiron View Post
    I don't like the idea of parking my 2A rights on the street, but I guess it is better than losing an otherwise good job.
    Well now that all depends on if you are put in a situation in which you would have to use those 2A rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    "gun? what gun? That's just my colostomy bag, wanna see it?"
    I have been considering fitting my galco holster bag with plastic tubing running under my shirt for a similar claim.

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    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raysheen View Post
    I would say that you ARE properly authorized according to state law.
    I'm not sure that you could make that dog hunt. If they were talking about licensure, they would have said "...without proper licensure." It would be pretty obvious what they meant when push comes to shove.

    And case law in every state I've ever heard of indicates that a parking lot of a non-commonly housed employer (i.e. a building with just one employer in it as opposed to an office building) IS company property.

    Unless you want to risk losing your job, I'd lock it up. It is not a 2A right to carry a gun anywhere YOU want. It's a 2A right that the govt cant tell you you cant, but I can if you come on my property.

    Just like the govt can't tell you to shut up if you're complaining about Iraq, but I can!

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    Member Array 500Mag's Avatar
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    Great words of wisdom I have received when dealing with employers..."It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."

    That being said, this company policy is not law. Worst case you get canned, and that's a risk you would have to decide if your willing to take. Alternate scenario you plead ignorance and say you figured you were "authorized" by law and things are cool. Best case it stays concealed and no one is the wiser.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Firearms, weapons, and other hazardous devices or substances are not allowed on XXXXXX property without proper authorization.
    I take "proper authorization" to be so open-ended that it could very well be argued that it means "I was given a concealed carry license by the state, so I'm 'authorized.'"



    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Some may advise you to ignore the rules but like it or not, that's just not honest and when you took that job, you agreed to obey the rules.

    I'm one of those "some who may advise you to ignore the rules."

    "It's just not honest"?
    Neither is the way the company fills you full of about how this policy is there to protect the workers. This policy is there to protect the company.

    Who's not being honest? The employee who comes to work regularly, free of intoxicants, with a good attitude, and does his job reliably and loyally, but carries a gun with him because violence can be perpetrated anywhere, from the drive to work, to the office itself, to the drive home and the stop at the grocery store on the way? Or the company, which pretends that telling those who would obey a rule that forbids bringing a gun to the workplace is going to stop the violent madman who is so far beyond obeying a no-guns rule that he plans to slaughter people?

    Really, this is the company ******* on the workers in the name of protecting itself from absurd lawsuits. If a psycho does come into the office to shoot people, how is the fact that everyone is being good little citizen-employees by leaving their useful guns at home going to help anyone?

    These policies are enacted in bad faith from the start. Ignoring them is no more dishonest than the policies themselves.

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    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kastiron View Post
    Company size is under 100 people, less than 10 in the office atmosphere where I work. I don't like the idea of parking my 2A rights on the street, but I guess it is better than losing an otherwise good job.

    Any suggestions on starting a discussion without giving myself up?
    Don't say squat. I mean it. Opening up your mouth is the exact way to get not only scrutinized to the point where you'd never get away with continuing to carry, but also to get the policy restated more explicitly and with less wiggle room. Just carry very very discreetly and make sure "concealed means concealed."

    You'll keep your job until the day that the gun gets used to save your life. Then, you may lose the job, and you'll be glad to lose the job because you'll have survived a murder attempt.

    If you never have to use the gun, no one will ever have known you had it. That's as it should be.

    I sure don't see why you would want to start a big discussion about it. It's clear that to ask about the policy is the same as stating that you've been carrying (and then be suspected of maybe continuing to). Why tip them off? Why give consideration to a company that is essentially telling you they don't give a crap that you should now have to come to and from work without means of protection?

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    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    As long as your work place is not an "off limits place" according to your state or local laws, my advice is to continue to carry and not mention anything.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    In the event you are asked about your sidearm (should never come up if it is properly concealed unless you have to use it), you could claim that you interpreted the "without proper authorization" to be a reference to your permit from the state. I am fairly sure this is NOT what they mean, but if asked I am sure you could easily form a rational defense based on this mind set.
    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    Worst case scenario, you need to look for a new job. It is better to be alive and out of work than follow the company rules and be another dead employee.
    EXACTLY!

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    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    I love my job, but I'd much rather be fired than dead. Hands down.

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    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmandoo122 View Post
    I'm not sure that you could make that dog hunt. If they were talking about licensure, they would have said "...without proper licensure." It would be pretty obvious what they meant when push comes to shove.
    Not our fault if their legal teams couldn't state the policy in a way that expressed what they wanted to express. Ambiguity is ambiguity, and the ambiguity here is their own fault.

    So sorry you left a gaping loophole in your employee policy, folks. But it's a stupid policy in the first place, so I don't mind exploiting the loophole.

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