Texas HB 47 - Page 2

Texas HB 47

This is a discussion on Texas HB 47 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The Second Amendment clearly states - Shall not be infringed. Should a woman who is suddenly faced with a dangerous stalker be denied the right ...

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Thread: Texas HB 47

  1. #16
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    The Second Amendment clearly states - Shall not be infringed.
    Should a woman who is suddenly faced with a dangerous stalker be denied the right to self defense before she can schedule and attend a class?
    Does a military veteran or a person who has been handling firearms for 40 years need a 10 hour class?
    How many hours does it take to explain the laws and the responsibilities? Are we training lawyers or the bearing of arms?

    Asking an instructor is like asking a car mechanic how long it should take to fix your car. More is always better.
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  2. #17
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  3. #18
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    It is unlawful to open carry in Texas. I would not be in favor of shortening the class time required to obtain a Texas CHL. If you are really serious about carrying, one day is a small investment of your time. My class was interesting and presented a lot of info on pistol safety/gun handling. People who are new to shooting need this time and education, and it was good to remind the frequent shooters of things they may have forgotten. Those of us over age 60 enjoy a 50% discount on the state license fee.
    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
    Asking an instructor is like asking a car mechanic how long it should take to fix your car. More is always better.
    We charge for the class, not for the time. If you think my class fee will be reduced because the time that is required is reduced, you are mistaken. I am certain there are instructors that think this is a fantastic idea. I am sure some of them are already cutting the required time short as it is. Those are the ones that are simply out to make a buck, not there to give the students the best class they can.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R040607 View Post
    I enjoyed my TX CHL class, but we had a lot of down-time. I believe the material covered is vital, but I would have enjoyed more of it in less than 10 hrs.

    Let me ask you this: 4 hrs is not enough, okay. Is 10 hrs too much? I am curious what the instructors think.
    I could spit the info out in 4 hours, maybe. I could probably teach it all in 6 hours. I certainly would not be able to talk about carry methods or guns, scenarios, or anything else that is helpful to those who are taking the class.
    Hopyard and bigdogtx like this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #21
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    How many hours does it take to understand that gaggle of dangerously complex laws? Or do you advocate that people not understand the laws at all, and simply issue a permit to anyone who isn't prohibited and then deal with it as it hits the fan? Just because the required time may be limited, the gaggle of complex laws still stay the same. That isn't going to change.

    Based on the currently extremely low percentage of CHL holders who get into trouble in Texas, vs the rest of the population, I would say that something is being done right.
    There's no mandate for any training at all to carry an AR-15 on my shoulder. That seems to have worked pretty well for Texas for coming up quickly on 200 years. What kind of argument do you think the Texas government could make to the judiciary to justify denying everyone their right to carry a handgun without mandatory training while requiring nothing to carry an AR-15?

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    The simple justification that very, very few Texans excercise their right to carry a long gun around compared to those who apply for a CHL and carry their handguns.

    Which do you take to Wal-mart? If not the rifle, why not.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eipo View Post
    The regulation concerns concealed carry. Is open carry illegal in your state?

    Arguing about the legality or Constitutionality of a states requirement for citizens to obtain permits to conceal carry is a separate topic.
    Concealed carry is the only means to carry a handgun publicly in Texas. Just because SCOTUS said in Heller that licensing might be allowed, doesn't mean that any licensing requirement is automatically OK. What argument do you think the Texas government can make to rationalize mandating training for handguns, but not AR-15s?

  9. #24
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    Now I'm confused...

    Is it RKBA, or RKBAWTHIT (Right to Keep and Bear Arms With Ten Hours of Instruction Time)?

    I certainly understand how important taking a SD pistol class is...I'm just sayin'...
    More training/practice = better shooting...
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    It appears that there will be a bill introduced this legislative session in Texas, HB 47, which will change the required time for CHL instruction from a minimum of 10 hrs, maximum 15 hrs for first time, to a maximum of 4 hours of instruction required for both first time and renewals and then the range time.

    Folks in the know think this has a good chance of passing. It has the NRA support as well. The thought is to bring Texas requirements more in line with some of the other states time requirements.


    83(R) HB 47 - Introduced version - Bill Text

    I am not so sure I agree with this proposed legislation. We will be required to teach all the same material for first time students, but will have 4-6 hours less to teach it. I don't think the material can be covered adequately if you are simply spitting it out there for them with no time for any discussion.

    The instructor/student would have the option of offering longer sessions, but the student would not have to stay. The material would have to put out there, the test given, and then if they want to leave they can. If they wanted to stay for additional classroom time, it would be up to them and the instructor to do more time.

    So, for those who have endured the 10+ hrs of a Texas CHL course, what are your thoughts on a speed class that simply highlights the minimum stuff to pass the test and then send you on your way?
    I'm confused when you say the students "would not have to stay". My classes are sixteen hours long over a two-day period. That is how I plan them, teach them, and charge for them. Can you not do similarly, regardless of legislation which permits lessor training?
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    You might actually read the Texas Constitution.

    Sec. 23. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
    Hopyard likes this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    The simple justification that very, very few Texans excercise their right to carry a long gun around compared to those who apply for a CHL and carry their handguns.

    Which do you take to Wal-mart? If not the rifle, why not.
    Fortunately, it's not so simple anymore. That kind of irrational reasoning can easily suffice in the legislature, but not in the courts anymore. Read the recent 7th circuit appeals ruling on the Illinois public gun ban. That kind of "rational" basis argument is just not going to fly after Heller. The court spent a great deal of time pointing out that the gun control arguments aren't even rational.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I'm confused when you say the students "would not have to stay". My classes are sixteen hours long over a two-day period. That is how I plan them, teach them, and charge for them. Can you not do similarly, regardless of legislation which permits lessor training?
    Currently, Texas law requires a minimum of 10 hours and maximum of 15 hours including range time for first time CHL applicants. So I can not plan a 16 hour course even if I want to. If they pass the written and handgun proficiency they can not be held in class longer than 15 hours.

    The new legislation the way I understand it to be, would say that the minimum classroom time be 4 hours, with no maximum being stated. Based on what I have read so far, that would mean that at the end of 4 hours, the student would be free to leave the classroom portion and I need to be finished with all the required materials and test.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  14. #29
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    Fortunately, it's not so simple anymore. That kind of irrational reasoning can easily suffice in the legislature, but not in the courts anymore. Read the recent 7th circuit appeals ruling on the Illinois public gun ban. That kind of "rational" basis argument is just not going to fly after Heller. The court spent a great deal of time pointing out that the gun control arguments aren't even rational.
    You do realize that circuit court rulings are only valid in that circuit, not nationwide. You also need to read Heller. No where did the SCOTUS say that regulations can not be put in place for public safety. They did say that DC can not blanketly forbid people from having handguns in their home for self defense. Ok that is a very short summary of a very long ruling.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
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  15. #30
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    You might actually read the Texas Constitution.
    Oh yeah, I know exactly what it says. It says that because Texans amended the constitution to repeal the 1871 law that is still on the books, right after they ran the reconstructionist governor who signed that law out of the capital at gunpoint. The 1871 law prohibited public possession altogether, it didn't just regulate the wearing of arms. The only reason it's still on the books is because of court cases rationalized based upon the precedence of cases like Cruickshank and Slaughterhouse. That bedrock of Texas case law was shattered by Heller. If Texas repealed 46.02, and restricted concealed carry only, these onerous requirements might last a few more years the way things are going now, but that's not the case right now.

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