Texas HB 47 - Page 4

Texas HB 47

This is a discussion on Texas HB 47 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by farronwolf ' The Texas legislature disagrees with you. Fortunately, the Texas legislature is not God. It's not lead by a totalitarian dictator, ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    '

    The Texas legislature disagrees with you.
    Fortunately, the Texas legislature is not God. It's not lead by a totalitarian dictator, and it's power is limited by the other branches of government and by the people.


  2. #47
    Member Array eipo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    Concealed carry is the only means to carry a handgun publicly in Texas. Just because SCOTUS said in Heller that licensing might be allowed, doesn't mean that any licensing requirement is automatically OK. What argument do you think the Texas government can make to rationalize mandating training for handguns, but not AR-15s?
    Thats wrong.

    Please do not misconstrue my position. I merely believe 4 hours is not enough instruction time. If there were not a mountain of legal issues one must consider when they decide to take an active approach to providing safety for their family, than the time might not be an issue. There is so much involved, and responsibility taken on by arming oneself, than I feel can be conveyed in a 4 hour class. Its my opinion and mine alone. I'm not speaking for anyone else.

    I am not engaging in the discussion, in this thread, on the authority or regulatory power of a state to mandate training.

  3. #48
    Member Array eipo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    Your idea of freedom and mine seem to differ quite a bit. It's state mandated training. It's certainly not a free market.
    States mandate alot of things you have to pay for. You only taking issue with a concealed carry class?

  4. #49
    Member Array Remy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    So, for those who have endured the 10+ hrs of a Texas CHL course, what are your thoughts on a speed class that simply highlights the minimum stuff to pass the test and then send you on your way?
    I've already commented on your class, so you know that I enjoyed your class. I didn't even realize it was more than the 10 hrs. I was comfortable with handling and shooting guns already before the class, but I know there were newbies there and I think the extra 'discussions' was good and needed. I know that I liked having a look and handling the different holsters in a relaxed atmosphere was nice, compared to maybe being at a store where a salesperson might be pushing a sale. I also liked the way the laws were presented in a way that stressed the importance of them and the discussion we had about some of them. The class size was a nice 'personal size', 7 total (6 + myself).

    So after my experience, no, 4 hours would not be enough. Others might not have had a good experience like I had.

  5. #50
    Member Array CigarStix's Avatar
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    I just took my class about a month ago. First, I don't think 10 hrs is asking too much when you consider the responsibilities involved. Driving instruction, at least back in my day, was much longer then 10 hrs. However, with that being said, I think the time could have been better utilized. Learning the Laws can be done by reading a book; more time should be given to SAFE GUN HANDLING and DEFENSIVE SHOOTING TACTICS. These are two areas that are virtually non-existent from the CHL class. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that licensed CHL carriers will make the effort to get additional training or instruction regarding the proper use and safety of their weapons, that's just human nature. People are lazy and just want that permit in their wallet!I also think the penalties for carrying concealed WITHOUT a permit should be MORE stringent in Texas. They need to incentivize more people to go through the course and be held accountable and background checked. Most infractions are simple misdemeanors for being caught carrying a gun without a permit. There are probably thousands of people carrying without any background checks or additional accountability.

  6. #51
    Member Array Remy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarStix View Post
    First, I don't think 10 hrs is asking too much when you consider the responsibilities involved.
    Agreed

  7. #52
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Does that also mean that if I am confident that I can drive 130 mph on public roads, I should be able to ignore speed limit signs.
    You debate like a liberal. Please show me where driving a car is a constitutional right with "Shall Not Be Infringed" as part of the text.
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    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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  8. #53
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I think any mandatory training is stupid. What about all of the folks here that support it but profess to support the 2A? Thought the goal was to get Consitutional carry for everyone in all states....guess not.

    In NH we did just fine without classes. VT and other states did just as well.

    And..if you do think that training is mandatory then I would suggest that you are not ready at 10 hours. No 10 hour training session would pass my standards to allow someone to carry if that was a requirement.
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  9. #54
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eipo View Post
    States mandate alot of things you have to pay for. You only taking issue with a concealed carry class?
    If they passed all sorts of prohibitive, restrictive, and complicated laws regulating free speech and the practice of religion, including mandatory training, you bet I'd take issue with it.
    jrclen likes this.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
    You debate like a liberal. Please show me where driving a car is a constitutional right with "Shall Not Be Infringed" as part of the text.
    If you read the part of the Texas Constitution that I posted, you would see that Texas doesn't have the wording "Shall Not Be Infringed" in their Constitution. That is in the Federal Constitution and applies at the Federal level, not the state. Once you can grasp that, and differentiate between the two, you will do yourself a great service.

    Second, since the Texas Constitution says that they can regulate the wearing of arms, it falls under the same scope as driving in that it can be regulated. Which means that even though your or I don't think we need to follow the same rules as everyone else because we are more skilled at whatever is being regulated, it makes no difference, we still have to follow the same rules as what the Texas Legislature puts forth.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #56
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What about all of the folks here that support it but profess to support the 2A?
    All it takes to post here is an anonymous email account and a few anonymous fields on a registration form. Don't presume the posters here support the 2A at all.

    Thought the goal was to get Consitutional carry for everyone in all states....guess not.
    The goal in Texas was to get around the 46.02 law that's been on the books since 1871. The strategy to do that was to pass a concealed carry law, so restrictive that only a small small percentage of people would ever take advantage of it. You know, appease the most vocal opponents to the 46.02 law. That and only allow those least likely to ever commit any crime, much less a gun related crime. There is no goal from any of the political leaders in Texas to repeal the unconstitutional 46.02 law.

    In NH we did just fine without classes. VT and other states did just as well.
    In Texas, we did just fine for over 150 years without training classes. Those without a CHL have done fine carrying handguns in their car in Texas for several years without any training. For two years, those same non-CHL folks have done just fine carrying handguns into their employer's parking lots without training. That's not the point. The point is that training is one of the biggest barriers to everyone being able to exercise their 2A rights freely. If we let that happen, surely there would be blood in the streets! So much for the rational basis argument for gun control.

    And..if you do think that training is mandatory then I would suggest that you are not ready at 10 hours. No 10 hour training session would pass my standards to allow someone to carry if that was a requirement.
    It's not about the training. It's about power.

  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    Florida Statute 790.06 (2) (h) training requirements:
    1. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency of another state;
    2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
    3. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;
    4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
    5. Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;
    6. Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or a county or municipality of this state, unless such license has been revoked for cause; or
    7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor.

    The basis hand gun course presented by a certified NRA instructor that meets Florida state requirements is one hour in length at a cost of $40 to $75 and, IMO, does infringe on your 2nd Amendment rights. In the state of Florida to obtain your initial vehicle drivers license you must attend a four class, pass an eye test, pass a short road sign and basic driving laws test and demonstrate driving proficiency on a very short (< 1/10 mile) enclosed driving course without any other vehicle traffic. On completion the driver with little or no road experience is free to travel on any road/highway in North America. Very scary IMO.
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  13. #58
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If you read the part of the Texas Constitution that I posted, you would see that Texas doesn't have the wording "Shall Not Be Infringed" in their Constitution. That is in the Federal Constitution and applies at the Federal level, not the state. Once you can grasp that, and differentiate between the two, you will do yourself a great service.
    What part of banning the public possession of a handgun is a regulation of the wearing of arms? Prohibiting is not regulating. The 1871 law was passed just after the Constitution was changed to say "under such regulations as the legislature may prescribe," and with the loss of our 2A rights, no surprise, we also lost our 1st amendment rights and other rights like free and fair voting. I don't believe the current law has ever even been tested against the 1876 keep and bear arms provision. In one key legal case the judge quoted the deleted provision "under such regulations as the legislature may prescribe" after the constitution was amended in 1876 in his justification of upholding the law.

    Whether the Texas constitution mandates "Shall not be infringed," the US constitution still says that, and Texas is bound by the 14th amendment to abide by it. On what basis would you argue that training is a mandatory requirement to prevent crime? Would you give us a weak unfounded irrational basis argument that flies in the face of well established facts like they did in the Illinois case? Apparently the judges got quite a chuckle out of that.

    Now, let's get serious. We're talking about the only legal means to bear one of the most common forms of firearms for 24 million people. You're supporting a regulation of the right that mandates training. Can you make an argument that would pass the judicial standard of intermediate scrutiny? How about strict scrutiny? Just your irrational basis argument? Sorry, you lost. It's unconstitutional.

    Second, since the Texas Constitution says that they can regulate the wearing of arms, it falls under the same scope as driving in that it can be regulated. Which means that even though your or I don't think we need to follow the same rules as everyone else because we are more skilled at whatever is being regulated, it makes no difference, we still have to follow the same rules as what the Texas Legislature puts forth.
    You're forgetting that 46.02 prohibits the public possession of handguns altogether. The government can't prohibit a fundamental right and then give it back to the people as a privilege regulated a the whim of the majority. No law that violates the constitution is a valid law.
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  14. #59
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarStix View Post
    I just took my class about a month ago. First, I don't think 10 hrs is asking too much when you consider the responsibilities involved.
    How do you rationalize that we can carry an AR-15 loaded with a 30 round clip of high power ammunition anywhere in the state without any training what so ever? Anyone can carry a handgun in their car almost anywhere in the state without training. How do you rationalize that they need all this training to take it out of the car and stand at the gas pump?

    Is 10 hours of training too much to ask? Well, they don't want just 10 hours. They want our AR-15s. They want the 30 round clips. They want our Ruger 10-22s that can hold that 30 round clip. They want all our semi-automatic handguns and shotguns. They want the pump shotguns too. They want our bullets, and they want to literally brainwash our whole society into believing that only the government should be allowed to have guns. So much for the common sense rational basis (ie mob rule) for regulating guns. Fortunately, for now, the Supreme Court has held that unconstitutional, by one vote.

    People are lazy and just want that permit in their wallet!I also think the penalties for carrying concealed WITHOUT a permit should be MORE stringent in Texas. They need to incentivize more people to go through the course and be held accountable and background checked. Most infractions are simple misdemeanors for being caught carrying a gun without a permit. There are probably thousands of people carrying without any background checks or additional accountability.
    You just stereotyped and insulted almost 26 million people. Nice! You've got it all wrong. There is no intent to "incentivize" the citizens in Texas to exercise the 2A rights. The intent is to prohibit by far the bulk of the population from exercising their rights, and they are still succeeding nicely.
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  15. #60
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If you read the part of the Texas Constitution that I posted, you would see that Texas doesn't have the wording "Shall Not Be Infringed" in their Constitution. That is in the Federal Constitution and applies at the Federal level, not the state. Once you can grasp that, and differentiate between the two, you will do yourself a great service.
    State and local law does not trump the Bill of Rights. Please read the 14th Amendment.
    9MMare likes this.
    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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