Texas HB 47

This is a discussion on Texas HB 47 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare OK. Can you link me to the source for that? I'm sure you've seen it. I'd like to know if and ...

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  1. #106
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    OK. Can you link me to the source for that? I'm sure you've seen it. I'd like to know if and how it distinguishes accidents in the home according to CHL and non-CHL.
    Here you go.

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL...Report2011.pdf
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #107
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    Good question but I don't have an answer. Wish I did...

  4. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony1990 View Post
    Making the Texas CHL classes 15 hours can only make for better trained CHL people. I am all for it since some people have very experience with any kind of weapons so they may need a little more time in class. There are people that were raised with guns and could probably give a class on their own but my concern is that if you never even fired a gun 10 hours may not be enough time.
    We had a question raised earlier as to those who cannot wait for weeks of bureaucracy before they can be given permission by the state to exercise their fundamental right to self defense with a handgun. A woman has a blowout with her husband, and leaves him. He's violent. He's threatened her. He's actively stalking her. How much training should we mandate before she can be allowed to carry a gun to defend herself at all times?

  5. #109
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    I think the longer time frame is better, especially for new licenses. Most of the renewal classes I've been to since 1997 have been geared towards covering the changes in the law since we were last certified. There's no such thing as too much information. Perhaps more time spent on "stand your ground" would have kept Raul Roriguez out of jail...

  6. #110
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    '

    The Texas legislature disagrees with you.

    Does your state require training?
    It does not. Sounds like the Texas state legislature is a bunch gun-grabbing pansies who hate freedom and the 2nd Amendment. Doesn't it?

  7. #111
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Thank you. Now let's go back two steps. I misundertood your response with the rolling eyes, missing the sarcasm. But I am interested in that, thank you.

    My focus, as I mentioned, is the percentage of CHL holders involved in accidents (or a bad shoot...which could show in in criminal records) vs non-CHL holders. Is there any evidence that required training makes anyone safer? (I'm sure that training does but there's no way of accounting for the majority of gun owners who grew up with guns, or hunting, or got training on their own.)

    Because crime has NOTHING to do with training. Safety...in the home, of the owner, in public....those are the things that the laws and training are focused on. I hope we're not intentionally training criminals!
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    OK. Can you link me to the source for that? I'm sure you've seen it. I'd like to know if and how it distinguishes accidents in the home according to CHL and non-CHL.
    The data base compares conviction rates, not accident rates. CHL info would necessarily include many CHL holders who
    carry daily, and many who almost never carry; whereas non-CHL can not carry. Therefore even if info were available such a comparison wouldn't be too meaningful.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #113
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The data base compares conviction rates, not accident rates. CHL info would necessarily include many CHL holders who
    carry daily, and many who almost never carry; whereas non-CHL can not carry. Therefore even if info were available such a comparison wouldn't be too meaningful.
    Right. Yes. Altho certainly all accidents dont happen out in public. As a matter of fact, I bet the majority happen at home. Gun cleaning, kids showing friends, drunk morons showing off, etc.

    And the basic gun owner doesnt require training.

    So....where does that leave us? It leaves me wondering just what purpose mandatory training fulfills? What is the data on permit holders accidentally shooting their guns or people or themselves out in public? They do exist...we've had a rash of fools dropping their firearms lately....but when I read the news, just as many of those are people who do not have permits and then get charged with misdemeanors (unless they do actual damage, then there may be other charges).

    As I said in my first post in this thread, I consider this new proposal and mandatory training in general as 'feel good' legislation. But there doesnt seem to be any proof that it does anything.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #114
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    just what purpose mandatory training fulfills?
    It assures legislators, business owners, and the public that the barrier to anyone actually exercising their 2A rights in public is sufficiently high that only a small percentage of people will actually do it. It was used politically to give everyone just enough of a warm fuzzy feeling to counter the blood in the streets argument in order to pass the CHL law. That's the only purpose. In other words, there is no rational purpose for mandating the training.
    jrclen likes this.

  11. #115
    Member Array jrclen's Avatar
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    Crooks, thugs, and outlaws have no mandated training requirements. And they seem to do just fine without it.
    Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
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    John

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post

    So....where does that leave us? It leaves me wondering just what purpose mandatory training fulfills?
    Here is the index for the CHL Handbook covering TX laws and regulations that a CHL should be aware of.
    The useful purpose of the class is to go through the handbook and at least make one attempt to inform folks
    of the law--- and help them understand the arcane language in the black letter law, real world examples of how the
    law plays out, and how that works for and against them
    in the real world of everyday carry or deadly encounter. There is lots of stuff in the handbook. It can't be covered
    in 4 hours. Only the most important points are covered even in 10.

    LAWS RELATING TO THE CARRYING OF A CONCEALED HANDGUN IN TEXAS
    GOVERNMENT CODE
    CH. 411. TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
    Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN
    411.171. DEFINITIONS .................................................. ........................................... 3
    411.1711. CERTAIN EXEMPTIONS FROM CONVICTIONS ...................................... 3
    411.172. ELIGIBILITY .................................................. .............................................. 4
    411.173. NONRESIDENT LICENSE .................................................. ....................... 6
    411.174. APPLICATION .................................................. .......................................... 7
    411.175. REQUEST FOR APPLICATION MATERIALS ............................................ 8
    411.176. REVIEW OF APPLICATION MATERIALS .................................................. 8
    411.177. ISSUANCE OR DENIAL OF LICENSE .................................................. ..... 9
    411.178. NOTICE TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT .............................................. 9
    411.179. FORM OF LICENSE .................................................. ................................. 9
    411.180. NOTIFICATION OF DENIAL, REVOCATION, OR SUSPENSION OF
    LICENSE; REVIEW .................................................. ........................ 10
    411.181. NOTICE OF CHANGE OF ADDRESS OR NAME .................................... 11
    411.182. NOTICE .................................................. .................................................. 12
    411.183. EXPIRATION .................................................. .......................................... 12
    411.184. MODIFICATION .................................................. ...................................... 13
    411.185. RENEWAL .................................................. .............................................. 13
    411.186. REVOCATION .................................................. ........................................ 14
    411.187. SUSPENSION OF LICENSE .................................................. .................. 15
    411.188. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT ........................................... 16
    411.1881. EXEMPTION FROM INSTRUCTION FOR CERTAIN PERSONS ............. 18
    411.1882. EVIDENCE OF HANDGUN PROFICIENCY FOR CERTAIN PERSONS .. 18
    411.189. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY CERTIFICATE .............................................. 19
    411.190. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS ................................................. 19
    411.191. REVIEW OF DENIAL, REVOCATION, OR SUSPENSION OF
    CERTIFICATION AS QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTOR .......... 20
    411.192. CONFIDENTIALITY OF RECORDS .................................................. ....... 20
    411.193. STATISTICAL REPORT .................................................. ......................... 20
    411.194. REDUCTION OF FEES DUE TO INDIGENCY ......................................... 21
    411.195. REDUCTION OF FEES FOR SENIOR CITIZENS .................................... 21
    411.1951. WAIVER OR REDUCTION OF FEES FOR MEMBERS OR VETERANS OF
    UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES ................................................ 21
    411.196. METHOD OF PAYMENT .................................................. ........................ 21
    411.197. RULES .................................................. .................................................. .. 22
    411.198. LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER ALIAS HANDGUN LICENSE .............. 22
    411.199. HONORABLY RETIRED PEACE OFFICERS .......................................... 22
    411.1991. ACTIVE PEACE OFFICERS .................................................. ................... 23
    411.200. APPLICATION TO LICENSED SECURITY OFFICERS ........................... 24
    411.201. ACTIVE AND RETIRED JUDICIAL OFFICERS ........................................ 24
    411.202. LICENSE A BENEFIT .................................................. ............................. 25
    411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS .................................................. ..................... 25
    411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES ...................................... 25
    411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE ................................................. 26
    411.206. SEIZURE OF HANDGUN AND LICENSE ................................................ 26
    411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM .................................... 26
    411.208. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY .................................................. .................... 27 HEALTH & SAFETY CODE
    12.092. MEDICAL ADVISORY BOARD; BOARD MEMBERS ............................... 28
    12.095. BOARD PANELS; POWERS AND DUTIES ............................................. 28
    12.097. CONFIDENTIALITY REQUIREMENTS .................................................. .. 29 PENAL CODE
    30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS .................................................. ........................... 29
    30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
    HANDGUN .................................................. ...................................... 32
    38.01. DEFINITIONS .................................................. ......................................... 33
    42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT .................................................. ...................... 33 CH. 46. WEAPONS
    46.01. DEFINITIONS .................................................. ......................................... 34
    46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS .................................................. ..... 36
    46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED .................................................. ........ 36
    46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER ............ 38
    46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM ............................................... 40
    46.041. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF METAL OR BODY ARMOR BY
    FELON .................................................. ............................................. 40
    46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS .................................................. ....................... 41
    46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS ................................ 41
    46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE .................................................. ..................... 42
    46.08. HOAX BOMBS .................................................. ......................................... 42
    46.09. COMPONENTS OF EXPLOSIVES .................................................. ......... 43
    46.10. DEADLY WEAPON IN PENAL INSTITUTION .......................................... 43
    46.11. PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMITTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE SCHOOL
    ZONE .................................................. ............................................... 43
    46.12. MAPS AS EVIDENCE OF LOCATION OR AREA .................................... 43
    46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD .................................. 44
    46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY .................................................. ............................... 45 CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
    Art. 17.292(l). MAGISTRATES ORDER FOR EMERGENCY PROTECTION ................. 47 EDUCATION CODE
    37.125. EXHIBITION OF FIREARMS .................................................. ................... 50 FAMILY CODE
    58.003. SEALING OF RECORDS .................................................. ........................ 50
    85.022. REQUIREMENTS OF ORDER APPLYING TO PERSON WHO
    COMMITTED FAMILY VIOLENCE .................................................. .. 50
    GOVERNMENT CODE
    76.0051. AUTHORIZATION TO CARRY WEAPON ................................................ 52
    411.047. REPORTING RELATED TO CONCEALED HANDGUN INCIDENTS ....... 52 HUMAN RESOURCE CODE
    80.001. FINGERPRINTING FOR IDENTIFICATION ............................................. 52 LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE
    229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES .................................................. ...................... 52
    250.001. RESTRICTION ON REGULATION OF SPORT SHOOTING RANGES ... 53
    LABOR CODE
    Subch. G. RESTRICTIONS ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE TRANSPORTATION OR STORAGE OF CERTAIN FIREARMS
    52.061. RESTRICTIONS ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE ACCESS TO OR
    STORAGE OF FIREARM OR AMMUNITION .................................. 54
    52.062. EXEMPTIONS .................................................. .......................................... 54
    52.063. IMMUNITY FROM CIVIL LIABILITY .................................................. ........ 55
    SELECTED DEADLY FORCE STATUTES .................................................. ................................ 56 PENAL CODE
    CH. 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
    Subch. A GENERAL PROVISIONS
    9.01. DEFINITIONS .................................................. .......................................... 56
    9.02. JUSTIFICATION AS A DEFENSE .................................................. .......... 57
    9.03. CONFINEMENT AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE ............................................. 57
    9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE .................................................. ..... 57
    9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON ........................... 57
    9.06. CIVIL REMEDIES UNAFFECTED .................................................. ........... 57 Subch. B. JUSTIFICATION GENERALLY
    9.21. PUBLIC DUTY .................................................. ......................................... 57
    9.22. NECESSITY .................................................. ............................................. 58 Subch. C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS
    9.31. SELF-DEFENSE .................................................. ...................................... 58
    9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON ......................................... 59
    9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON .................................................. ............. 60
    9.34. PROTECTION OF LIFE OR HEALTH .................................................. ..... 60 Subch. D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY
    9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY .......................................... 60
    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY ......................................... 60
    9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY ................................ 61
    9.44. USE OF DEVICE TO PROTECT PROPERTY ......................................... 61 Subch. E. LAW ENFORCEMENT
    9.51. ARREST AND SEARCH .................................................. .......................... 61
    9.52. PREVENTION OF ESCAPE FROM CUSTODY ....................................... 62
    9.53. MAINTAINING SECURITY IN CORRECTIONAL FACILITY .................... 63 Subch. F. SPECIAL RELATIONSHIPS
    9.61. PARENT--CHILD .................................................. ..................................... 63
    9.62. EDUCATOR--STUDENT .................................................. ......................... 63
    9.63. GUARDIAN--INCOMPETENT .................................................. ................. 63
    CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE .................................................. ................................ 63 CPRC CH. 83. USE OF DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON
    83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY ..............................................
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #117
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    To be clear, I do not mean to attack Farronwolf. I respect his postings here on the forum.

    I am interested in sorting out the issue of mandatory training however....(and that's not just his issue)....and I need to know all the angles because I feel I must fight against further encroachment on the 2A and I need the answers to do so. Apparently not even the pro-gun side agrees on this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #118
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Thanks Hopyard. It was my personal responsibilty to do that here in WA St. And I did so.

    Personally I dont object to such a 'course' but I question calling it training.

    Again....is there evidence that such a course helps the public? Moreso that in states where it's not required? Does it make the public safer? (It's certainly in the best interests of the permit holder, for their own legal protection).

    But I have no objection to a test (not a mandatory course...if you can pass the test without a course, why isnt that valid?)....per state laws.

    Edit: however it certainly opens the door to a state making a test so difficult that many people would not pass it. Yeah....let's skip MORE requirements, period.
    Last edited by 9MMare; January 11th, 2013 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Edit: additional consideration of govt control
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #119
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Here is the index for the CHL Handbook covering TX laws and regulations that a CHL should be aware of.
    The useful purpose of the class is to go through the handbook and at least make one attempt to inform folks
    of the law--- and help them understand the arcane language in the black letter law, real world examples of how the
    law plays out, and how that works for and against them
    in the real world of everyday carry or deadly encounter. There is lots of stuff in the handbook. It can't be covered
    in 4 hours. Only the most important points are covered even in 10.
    My first reaction to seeing that material written again is that almost all of it is unconstitutional. It's all part of a legislative scheme intended to prohibit the average person from ever daring to step foot in public carrying a handgun. As this is the only means available to legally carry a handgun in public, this legislative scheme could never live up to even a rational basis for restricting our rights. If we stripped out all of this, there wouldn't be much left, and most of that would be relevant whether you're carrying a baseball bat, a shotgun, or a handgun in a car. No training is required there, so there's no useful purpose for mandating that training only for those wishing to carry a handgun. That is except of course this legislative scheme is a substantial barrier to the bulk of 25 million citizens across the state exercising their rights.

    Even as is, let's set up a testing poll for those who have completed the CHL training. What percentage of this 10 hours of training material and page after page of legislative nonsense can anyone remember even one month after the training? Let's also be honest about the basic gun safety inexperienced folks receive, learn and retain, on average, across the state in these training classes. How many people here really have a warm fuzzy about that as you see these folks show up next to you at the gun range? I'm sure for every individual, there is some value to the training, but for the safety of society, let's be real. It serves no useful purpose other than dissuading people from exercising their rights.

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Thanks Hopyard. It was my personal responsibilty to do that here in WA St. And I did so.

    Personally I dont object to such a 'course' but I question calling it training.

    Again....is there evidence that such a course helps the public? Moreso that in states where it's not required? Does it make the public safer? (It's certainly in the best interests of the permit holder, for their own legal protection).

    But I have no objection to a test (not a mandatory course...if you can pass the test without a course, why isnt that valid?)....per state laws.

    Edit: however it certainly opens the door to a state making a test so difficult that many people would not pass it. Yeah....let's skip MORE requirements, period.
    If these issues were simple we wouldn't have 50 states each having 50 different sets of laws; we'd have 50 states with laws on CHL that were similar to each other. There is no one answer other than no license requirements at all. Our elected officials
    in about 47 of the 50 states have seen fit to not go that route. They represent the entire population, not necessarily the interests of the concealed carry community. Sometimes these are not consistent with each other. That's life in a free country.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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