Obedience to laws/postings or respectful disobedience?
This is a discussion on Obedience to laws/postings or respectful disobedience? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm a noob to CCW. I work with LEOs, so I'm fairly well protected at work without carrying myself. Therefore, I don't feel put-out by ...
Post By Exacto
Post By sigs
Post By GH
January 11th, 2013 11:59 AM
Obedience to laws/postings or respectful disobedience?
I'm a noob to CCW. I work with LEOs, so I'm fairly well protected at work without carrying myself. Therefore, I don't feel put-out by the posted (KRS statue) no-carry policy at work. However, I'm not so sure about other situations where it is posted (whether with force of law or not). So my question is (hopefully this isn't illegal to forum rules or higher laws) whether you carry regardless of postings prohibiting carry? If so, if "caught" what would the penalty be (I know that will vary by state and probably location, but I just want an idea).
Since we are theoretically "concealed carrying" our weapons, wouldn't the chances be greater of not being caught than being caught? Therefore, respectful disobedience would not be noticable to most other patrons or even owners. For instance, if someone in the theater had been "illegally" carrying that fateful night, numerous lives *might* have been saved. Would the law really come down hard on an individual that saved lives through their respectful disobedience? Are there any precedents for instances like this?
I'm not advocating disobedience to the law, but I'm intensely forgetful and once I become more comfortable carrying concealed, I'm no doubt likely to forget to remove it prior to going somewhere prohibiting carry. KY has a pretty good open carry law as well as the further protection of my CCW license.
Forgive me if this is against policy and/or has already been throughly discussed. Please point me in the right direction in either case. Thank you.
January 11th, 2013 12:09 PM
IMO...........do what you believe is necessary to keep you safe.
January 11th, 2013 12:09 PM
As you said it will depend on state law. If the signs carry the weight of law, then you stand the chance of prosecution. If not, then you can be asked to leave.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
NRA Life Member
January 11th, 2013 12:10 PM
Respecful disobedience sounds good, it's a tactic the left uses to disguise gun control by calling it gun safety. As has been stated before many times, The vast majority of gun owners in this Country are responsible law abiding people, with an ethical responsibility to stay within the frame work of the law, and we do not wish to pretend that it would be respectful disobedience, It WOULD be a violation of the law that we strive to respect.
Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunder bolt...... Sun Tzu.
The supreme art of war is to defeat the enemy without fighting........ Sun Tzu.
January 11th, 2013 12:38 PM
It's a difficult question to answer. The decision to be "civilly disobedient" depends wholly on your particular state laws (force of law regarding signage in particular). Wisconsin's laws are not necessarily defined either way in regard to posted private property (businesses included). I choose to follow the signs, meaning "Gun Free Zone" equates to "Not Getting My Business." Period. It is a difficult responsibility I've placed on myself--changed family doctor and dentist, no mall shopping, no more Harbor Freight Tools, changed cell phone service (Sprint is "Gun Free"), choosing certain gas stations.
For me, the right to private property ownership is equally important as the 2A. Business owners have the right to post their property however they wish; however, they will also have the consequence of not earning my business (as well as others). It is also of note that in Wisconsin (not sure of other states) businesses who allow CCW licensees are immune to civil liability. In other words, a business can't be sued because of the actions of an allowed CCW licensee. However, a business could be sued for not allowing CCW if someone gets hurt by the actions of an armed robber, since they effectively prohibited people from defending themselves.
I choose to boycott posted locations, as well as contact them to make them aware of the laws. It has been an effective approach; more than one business in my area has taken down their signs. Letting a business know, "arming" them with knowledge, has been far more effective in raising awareness of the societal benefit of CCW, rather than silently disobeying the wishes of private businesses.
EDC--XD9 Service and/or XDs-45 depending on my mood
Soon-to-be new mama to a S&W 66-2 4"
January 11th, 2013 01:45 PM
I admit to being thankful for Florida law which gives no weight to posted signs. The only real consequence is if discovered you must leave or be trespassed.
January 11th, 2013 02:15 PM
The most important thing is if it is illegal to ignore the signs in your state. If so, being caught after defending yourself in a "good shoot" could still cost you your job working with LEOS.
I don't always have nothing to say, but when I do, I post it on Facebook.
January 11th, 2013 02:19 PM
I follow the laws. I may get fired, but I am not breaking any laws.
"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" ~ Mark Twain
January 11th, 2013 03:04 PM
I have a tendency to follow the desires of a property or business owner. I just don't do business with those who oppose my right to carry a firearm unless I absolutely have to (the clinic my doctor works out of for example). Having said that I once carried in a store that was posted but never saw the sign until I was leaving. Someone was leaving as I was entering & covered the sign. I won't go there again. I conceal well & as far as I know nobody was the wiser & I wouldn't have disarmed in the parking lot had I known. I would have gone elsewhere.
USN Submarine & UDT/SEAL Veteran
1SG, US Army Retired - Airborne Infantry All the Way!
Special Warfare Mentor
January 11th, 2013 03:10 PM
Rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6. Is that the saying? Depends on whats more important to you I guess..
January 11th, 2013 03:12 PM
Same for Iowa. Not carrying in a business with a sign posted it just courtesy. The worse that they can do if they discover you is ask you to leave. Only if you refuse can they call the authorities and have you removed for trespassing.
Originally Posted by sigs
I don't want to be a hero, but I'm sure not going to be a victim.
Hydrogen and human stupidty are the two most common elements on earth, not necessarily in that order. -- Albert Einstein
January 11th, 2013 11:25 PM
There are two categories of posted places:
1) Those places where firearms are prohibited by law
2) Those places where firearms are prohibited by policy
Since you're in KY (I am, too), I will refer you to the state police web site where the (thankfully short) list of places prohibited by law can be found:
Kentucky State Police: Concealed Deadly Weapons
Places prohibited by law are:
* Police station or sheriff's office.
* Detention facility, prison or jail.
* Courthouse (Court of Justice, courtroom or court proceeding).
* County, municipal, or special district governing body meetings.
* Meeting of governing body of a county, municipality, or special district.
* General Assembly session, including committee meetings.
* Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose.
* Elementary or secondary school facilities (without the consent of school authorities).
* Child-caring facilities, day care centers, or any certified family child care home.
* Areas within an airport where restricted access is controlled by the inspection of persons or property.
* Any place where federal law prohibits the carrying of a firearm.
Carrying in these place could result in immediate arrest, as you would have broken the law.
Now, the second category: places where firearms are prohibited by policy. This may be a bank, liquor store, movie theater, church, etc., that has an intimidating-looking sign by the door that may even have a KRS paragraph listed. In the commonwealth of Kentucky, these signs do not carry the weight of law, which means by themselves they do not make the carrying of a firearm within the facility illegal. Please note that in some states, these types of signs do in fact carry the weight of law, in some cases the sign must meet certain size and wording requirements.
That said, if you were somehow discovered to be carrying a weapon into a posted (by policy) facility, you could be asked to leave. If you refused and police were called, you could be arrested for trespass - maybe even armed trespass. I carry into these places all the time, and have never been asked to leave. If asked, I would of course leave and spend my money elsewhere. The operative word is concealed carry
For more information on handgun laws, please see Handgunlaw.us
January 11th, 2013 11:58 PM
Depends on the state... here in Colorado it is only policy meaning I could have ignored the sign at Cinemark and went to watch a movie but since they had a nice cardboard sign up saying no "no Guns Allowed blah blah..." i decided not to bother handing over my cash... what happened that night was horrific and only proved how well the signs work.
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