Under fire?... Just grab a textbook! :aargh4: (merge)

Under fire?... Just grab a textbook! :aargh4: (merge)

This is a discussion on Under fire?... Just grab a textbook! :aargh4: (merge) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What?? I guess the idea that someone is at least thinking about the security issue is a good start, but I am dumbfounded sometimes by ...

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Thread: Under fire?... Just grab a textbook! :aargh4: (merge)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Under fire?... Just grab a textbook! :aargh4: (merge)

    What?? I guess the idea that someone is at least thinking about the security issue is a good start, but I am dumbfounded sometimes by the outlandishness of some of these solutions....

    Candidate proposes using textbooks as shields
    POSTED: 10:10 a.m. EDT, October 20, 2006
    Adjust font size:
    OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- A candidate for state superintendent of schools said Thursday he wants thick used textbooks placed under every student's desk so they can use them for self-defense during school shootings.

    "People might think it's kind of weird, crazy," said Republican Bill Crozier of Union City, Oklahoma, a teacher and former Air Force security officer. "It is a practical thing; it's something you can do. It might be a way to deflect those bullets until police go there."

    Crozier and a group of aides produced a 10-minute video Tuesday in which they shoot math, language and telephone books with a variety of weapons, including an AK-47 assault rifle and a 9mm pistol. The rifle bullet penetrated two books, including a calculus textbook, but the pistol bullet was stopped by a single book.

    Crozier said the demonstration shows that a student could effectively use a textbook as protection in a school shooting.

    An Oklahoma Highway Patrol spokesman was skeptical.

    "He probably needs to take a look at some ballistics tests," Lt. Pete Norwood said. "There are some rifles not even Webster's Dictionary will stop."

    Crozier said he got the idea after the April 1999 shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The idea gained momentum after a December 1999 school shooting in Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, when a 13-year-old boy wounded five fellow students. Crozier noted that a bullet lodged in books in one student's backpack.

    "You don't know where they're going to happen. You don't know when they're going to happen. There ought to be some kind of plan to react to it," Crozier said.

    Six girls and a principal were killed in a recent string of shootings in Colorado, Wisconsin and at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania.

    Crozier faces incumbent Sandy Garrett, a Democrat, in the November 7 general election. A spokeswoman for Garrett's campaign, Kimberly Hawkins Sanders, said Garrett had no comment on Crozier's idea.
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10....ap/index.html
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    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Well its not a good plan imho , but i will give him credit for having one , no matter how impractical, most are making noise about how bad guns are , or how tragic school shootings are . I dobut he will get onboard to remove carry restrictions on schools , but he is closer than some appairently .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  3. #3
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    I don't know how people come up with such trash. We can't defend ourselves with the right tools, so we're gonna have our kids use big books and that'll solve the problem????? I can't believe somebody would even voice the words.

    We need teachers that are trained and armed, not kids with books for shields.

    I'd better stop or I'll have to delete my post.

  4. #4
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    I know the guy, and I am busting my butt to try to get him elected. That said, I am not real sure about the plan either. I would assume that some of the larger texts could stop low powered handgun rounds. However, that doesn't seem to be the type of weapon that is being used in these shootings. I'm pretty sure that just about every deer rifle in the world will punch through any book you put out there. I'd rather see students throwing books at a shooter while they run away, but that's just me.

    The sad thing is that we have to worry about it. Unless we are willing to arm people in the schools, we will have problems. That means we'll have people coming up with some strange ideas to help our kids survive a day at school.
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  5. #5
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    The one thing in this last week or so tho has been at least some recognition of the fact that schoolkids should not be stationary passive targets, awaiting execution.

    The book idea is pretty ''far out'' but I would like to see further moves made to make schoolkids potentially procative in an emergency. Something will always be better than nothing, instance Flight 93.

    It does not address what we know is the main deficiency of course.
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    Makes one wonder these days:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10....ap/index.html

    As crazy as it sounds (and the obvious logic it's lacking like armed teachers and parents), one has to wonder about how to protect our children when we're not allowed to protect them. Do they make concealable bulletproof vests in Junior sizes? Might be worth looking into. Overboard? Maybe...then again, what else is left while we can't protect them in school?

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    ...The sad thing is that we have to worry about it. Unless we are willing to arm people in the schools, we will have problems. That means we'll have people coming up with some strange ideas to help our kids survive a day at school.
    Agreed and bingo.
    It is a sad state of affiars but this is no more strange or purposeless than telling kids to duck and cover under their desk in the event of a nuclear bombing, whihc was very common and accepted a generation ago.

    Yes this idea maybe silly on the surface but at the very least parents, teachers, and adminstrators on both sides of the fence are now acknowledging that sitting pat and hoping everythign will be alright is effectively fubar.
    I see items like these from folks as being a first step toward their coming around to the understanding if not admission that they might be wrong as far as being anti-CCW is concerned.
    We should support these people and provide them with even more information rather than laugh. Anytime an anti on his/her own goes out to a range regardless of the target be it a book or whatever as they seek to better understand what guns are about, how they operate, and even more how one might defend themselves against potential crime.

    This is a good thing even as we pro gunners could have told the guy that a school book would have zero ability at stopping most any rifle round.
    One has to crawl before they can walk and antis like everyone else tend to take baby steps to start.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    I figure half of them ain't using them books for nothing else anyway...

    Bully for him for at least putting forth something for consideration.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Post ASME Student Chapter visits ballistic range

    The following is a test of shooting a medium sized text book by a group unrelated to the above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Virginia CommonWealth University | Mechanical Engineering dept.
    ASME Student Chapter visits ballistic range

    The VCU student chapter of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers organized a tour to a ballistic range outside Richmond, Virginia in October 2005. A video was made of a bullet moving at supersonic speeds and captured in slow motion using a 100,000 frames/second camera. The first bullet is fired toward a foam board with the VCU logo. The second bullet is fired (in frustration) toward a rather difficult textbook on Mechatronics.

    See for yourself. Choose a version to download:

    * Download the .wmv version (5.57 MB; duration 013)
    * Download the .mpg version (17.7 MB; duration 013)

    Two still photos, also taken during the same tour by the ASME student chapter, are combined in a single image file. At the top of the page is a view of a bullet before and after impact with a Kevlar bullet-proof vest. A penny is shown for scale. Note the features imprinted on the highly deformed bullet's head by the Kevlar fiber. At the bottom of the page is a bullet's exit wound in a book, where the students show their exasperation with the difficult subject matter.



    http://www.egr.vcu.edu/me/events/me-events.html
    Video of the above experiment can be found at; http://www.egr.vcu.edu/images/me/bulletmovie.wmv

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Post The Box O' Truth #31 - The Books O' Truth

    Quote Originally Posted by The Box O' Truth | The Books O' Truth
    The Box O' Truth #31 - The Books O' Truth

    I have had a number of folks send me notes on two related questions.

    The first is regarding the Bibles that some US troops carried in their shirt pockets in WWI and WWII.

    There were reports that some of these guys had bullets or shrapnel stopped by the Bibles in their pockets.

    Some enterprising guys even started selling metal covered Bibles that relatives could buy and send to troops.

    The question: Could a small Bible stop a bullet?

    Secondly, a surprising number of students have sent me notes asking: I carry a bunch of textbooks in my backpack. Could these books stop a bullet if needed?

    The question: How much paper is required to stop common bullets? Sounds like a good excuse to go to the range.

    I visited my local library and found that they had old books for sale for 10 cents apiece.

    I picked up the largest 15 in the pile for $1.50 and we were ready to go...

    <snipped out much specific testing and cool pics>

    ...Lessons learned:
    1. It takes a lot of paper to stop a some bullets.

    2. Were the stories of Bibles stopping bullets true? I believe they are indeed true, but may be misleading. We do not know how fast the pieces of shrapnel were going when they were stopped by the Bibles. Maybe the bullets that hit the Bibles had already hit the ground or some other object and were significantly slowed down by the time they hit the Bibles.

    One thing for sure, unless the troops were carrying an original copy of the Gutenberg Bible strapped to their chests, only a miracle of God would have prevented a rifle bullet at full speed from penetrating.

    3. Would a backpack full of books stop a bullet? Yes, if the bullets were pistol rounds. It would take about 7 inches of paper to stop a 9mm round.

    If we are talking about big rifle rounds, you had better have around 20 inches of books in the backpack to be relatively safe.

    4. I have been shooting into piles of telephone books and Sears catalogs all my life. I've made a lot of confetti, and learned a few things.

    But it's still fun to shoot books.
    The complete report can be found at; http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31.htm

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    I figure half of them ain't using them books for nothing else anyway...

    Bully for him for at least putting forth something for consideration.
    +1! It sure beats the "duck and cover" mentality many people seem to have.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  12. #12
    Member Array freethead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    I figure half of them ain't using them books for nothing else anyway...

    Bully for him for at least putting forth something for consideration.
    +1........I think that a tipping point has been reached and people who were not thinking about "bad things happening to good people" are now are starting to realize that they cannot be passive about thier own safety anymore. I think people are starting to realize that the government, schools, and instituions might not be able to protect them anymore and that they are responsible for what happens to them.

    (And no insult is intended to anyone who is in the public service/protection business. Thank you for being there.)

    I think if people start thinking about being more active in deciding what happens to them, maybe some of them will accept more personal responsibilty for other things in everday life..........maybe causing more lawyers to other find other opportunities such as real estate law instead of personal injury law.

  13. #13
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    funny this thread just came up, the local school asked us about this, so we did some "work" Most common pistol cartridges only penetrated to about page 40 or so of a text book. We did .380, 9mm, .40 and .45. Rifle's, well just say your sol... .223 went through five thick books, I don't remember exactly how many the 7.62x39 did, but I remember thinking your sol with that too. We didn't waste more time with .308 or 30-06.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=freethead;216155 I think people are starting to realize that the government, schools, and instituions might not be able to protect them anymore and that they are responsible for what happens to them. [/QUOTE]

    I think this comes from the "Goverment is responible for my safety, welfare, health, etc...... I hope that people are realizing that they are ultimately responsible for themselves, and that the goverment can not always provide for them.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Books as shields - movement may be better

    Previous posters have pointed out some of the technical problems of the "book as shield" approach to preventing school shootings. A difficulty that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that a book is much smaller than a human body - even a young person's body. So covering 20% of your area with a book still leaves about 80% uncovered. That is a poor shield.

    I think a more productive approach would be to teach children not to freeze and stand still when someone is trying to hurt them. This just makes for an easy target. A better approach is to run as fast as possible to leave the room or area. A moving target that is getting further away from you is much harder to hit.

    Of course the optimum solution is to have an adult protector with a .357 magnum and the will and skill to use it.

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