Burglar Shot in Flower Mound, TX

This is a discussion on Burglar Shot in Flower Mound, TX within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TC-TX WRONG. private property is Private Property. PERIOD NO DISTINCTION - NO DIFFERENCE in Texas. And remember it is irrelevant if something ...

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Thread: Burglar Shot in Flower Mound, TX

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC-TX View Post
    WRONG. private property is Private Property. PERIOD NO DISTINCTION - NO DIFFERENCE in Texas. And remember it is irrelevant if something was actually taken OR if anyone was threatened. It does Not matter...
    Right, actually, in the general, non-Texas, sense. Agreed. I'm sure you recognize those comments were made and specifically acknowledged as being made in reference to the general case of property vs. person crimes, with special mention that Texas law differs and has little practical distinction in this regard.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  3. #17
    Member Array KravJeff's Avatar
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    Legal nuances aside; does anyone besides me have a problem with the fact that the guy was shot in the back? TWICE? Someone mentioned that he may have charged the shooter ... Running backwards? It was also mentioned that the shooter said he was at the cash register - Yet there was no cash register ...

    Look, I'm all for defending what's mine, and the right on individuals to do so, but with what has been stated here, would you all, or most, or some of you really shoot someone in the back at a closed business in the middle of the night who was not thretening you? Is it really worth the legal nightmare this shooter and potentially owner of the business is going to go through? Is it worth it to sacrifice your family and your freedom?

    With all of the "good shoot" and "it was legally justified" b.s. that has been bantered about here, this thread seems to be lacking a hint of common sense ... At least based on the "facts" as presented

    Maybe I watch too much TV, but has anyone given any thought to the fact that this "criminal" was an ex-employee??? That they all may have known each other? Was there any bad blood?
    Last edited by KravJeff; October 23rd, 2006 at 06:01 AM.

  4. #18
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    Reading the article, it appears this is not that clear-cut.

    The dealership, via their attorney, contends that the decedent was wearing a hood to disguise his identity and was breaking into a register when he was verbally challenged and then shot when he failed to comply.

    The family of the decedent, naturally, portrays him as a former assistant of Mother Theresa, incapable of any wrong.

    The case is in the hands of the DA's office, and will be presented to the Grand Jury.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    It is bad news for all involved. I refuse to pass judgement on someone regarding a good/bad shoot especially with the sketchy info provided. Was the room lit? Did the bg make a quick step backwards from the candy machine/register/whatever, which was misinterpreted as an advance by the mechanic? There are a host of other things that could go wrong, even in broad daylight. I don't know what happened, but I do know one thing. If the bg hadn't been where he wasn't supposed to be, he wouldn't have gotten shot.

    I feel sorry for his family, and for the mechanic/security guard. He almost certainly never wanted this.(unless he is insane) I only hope that I am never unfortunate enough to have to use my weapon some day. But if I do I certainly hope thar people will give me the benefit of the doubt, while judgeing me, from the comfort of their den, based on scant and very likely inaccurate information.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KravJeff View Post
    ... does anyone besides me have a problem with the fact that the guy was shot in the back? TWICE?
    Unless the crosshairs are pinned to someone's chest, it's absolutely possible to quickly crouch and turn within the time it takes to come down from high-ready, put the finger on the trigger, then shoot.

    Knowledgeable Texans will need to clarify, but the above replies suggest that details shouldn't matter, and that it's as simple as: burglary = a lethal force encounter, if decided by the shooter.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  7. #21
    Member Array TC-TX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I'm sure you recognize those comments were made and specifically acknowledged as being made in reference to the general case of property vs. person crimes, with special mention that Texas law differs and has little practical distinction in this regard.
    YES - I understand the logic behind the post, BUT, this is a Texas case and nothing can or will be applied here except Texas law.

    IN this case nothing else matters.

    I wanted to refrain from bringing in other state interpretations to avoid confusing the facts in this case. They are irrelevant as we discuss the facts and merits of this case.

    There are enough mis-understood conditions in this case - I do not wish to add to the confusion.
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  8. #22
    Member Array TC-TX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KravJeff View Post
    Legal nuances aside; does anyone besides me have a problem with the fact that the guy was shot in the back?
    It has been stated several times (by me and others) that the question of lethal-Force-To-Protect-ones-property (which is legal in Texas) is not necessarily something I agree with, but My Personal Opinion of this particular point is IRRELEVANT to this case...

    I was trying to define and discuss the conditions that existed in this event while comparing them to the conditions that will (or will not) be applied in this homicide to determine an indictment or a no-bill.

    I do not know what I would do in this case, as I was not there.

    Neither were you.

    You may consider it B.S. to discuss the facts. I do not.

    I am certain the shooter does not.

    And yes - common sense can be applied in the discussion as to what NOT to do next time perhaps. But I am not one to second guess a person exercising legal rights in defense of ones self and/or property without knowing all of the facts.

    I believe this courtesy should be afforded to anyone in this situation until the facts prove otherwise.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Reading the article, it appears this is not that clear-cut.
    Matt - As a person who teaches Penal Code regularly, if folks will take the time to read Texas Penal Code, they will see and understand why this is actually not that complicated.

    I believe the law is very clear in this case.

    All of the minutia that folks want to bring into the equation (was the room lit, did he command to stop, was he wearing a hood, etc...) have No Bearing Whatsoever in the interpretation of the law in this case.

    And YES GoodSamaritan - you are absolutely correct in your statement:
    If the bg hadn't been where he wasn't supposed to be, he wouldn't have gotten shot.
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  10. #24
    Member Array TC-TX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan View Post
    ... I only hope that I am never unfortunate enough to have to use my weapon some day. But if I do I certainly hope that people will give me the benefit of the doubt, while judging me, from the comfort of their den, based on scant and very likely inaccurate information.
    AMEN. Well said GS...
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  11. #25
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    The law is the law, in Texas, as so aptly stated by TC-TX. Moral convictions aside, it sounds like a lawful shooting. Could depend on whether the DA is up for re-election or not.
    Also, though it may not be so in other states, the lawfulness of a shooting changes when it gets dark in Texas.
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  12. #26
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    So that all can read what the statute really says, here it is for Texas.

    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Now, I believe that the little bold "and" may be the hardest thing for the shooter to prove. That one little word stuck there at the end of section 2 really opens up room for a DA to pursue this case. Regarless of what burglary, robbery, tresspass or whatever was taking place.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Folks come to this discussion board to learn and think outside the box, as well, not merely to understand a given state's laws as they apply to a given case. In other words, this thread is more about a situational whaddayathink, instead of a restricted Texas-only review of the law.

    As well, in point of fact, we're not sitting in judgement of this guy, as we obviously don't have all the facts. Only the D.A. and the Grand Jury will have most of the facts. We sit here expressly to evaluate a situation given less-than-complete knowledge and perspective of the situation. Kicking around such things is how we learn and should not be taken as any sort of judgmental positioning.

    In a manner of speaking, the simple fact that so many (non-Texans, granted) question whether any details had anything to do with it shows how the shoot-for-property equation is considered on the fringe of self-defense law. In a manner of speaking, it's on the fringes where we find frays or loose threads ... and that's often where we can learn the most.

    In this case, the details appear clear, from the viewpoint of Texas law, given what we've heard so far. Though, what's been written is assuredly off by some margin, if historical newspaper reporting accuracy is any judge.

    Everywhere else in the country, though, the details alter one's choices. Hence, bringing up the more-conservative courses of action if we were in a similar situation (in our own states) serves a purpose.

    A conservative option (though perhaps seen as onerous in Texas): lethal force to be used only in the defense of life or grave bodily harm. The threat of its use can be used to hold a criminal until the cavalry arrives. Can be used to stop a criminal in the act of attempting to disarm the person holding him for the cavalry. Cannot be used on a fleeing burglar in the clear act of fleeing, given the lack of immediate threat to life. This would be an overall more-conservative standard of behavior, for those attempting to learn from this situation.

    TC-TX and others, please allow this discussion to flow. Clamping down on avenues of discussion merely serves to limit the learning.

    Edit: The mere fact that Texas law requires the reasonable person standard for urgency of use of lethal force allows that this specific case is, indeed, debatable.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #28
    Member Array TC-TX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman10111951 View Post
    Could depend on whether the DA is up for re-election or not.
    The sitting DA (Bruce Isaaks) was defeated in the last election and will be replaced in January...


    Quote Originally Posted by gman10111951
    Also, though it may not be so in other states, the lawfulness of a shooting changes when it gets dark in Texas.
    Exactly...
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC-TX View Post
    Matt - As a person who teaches Penal Code regularly, if folks will take the time to read Texas Penal Code, they will see and understand why this is actually not that complicated.

    I believe the law is very clear in this case.

    All of the minutia that folks want to bring into the equation (was the room lit, did he command to stop, was he wearing a hood, etc...) have No Bearing Whatsoever in the interpretation of the law in this case.
    If the Grand Jury returns a "No Bill", then things will be uncomplicated.

    However, as pointed out above, there are conditions that must be met for this to be a lawful shooting:
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
    However, it seems to me that shooting someone twice in the back as they flee a petty theft is not morally justified.

    It is a matter of not only what you can do, but what you should do.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    It is a matter of not only what you can do, but what you should do.
    Exactly. Thank you. Perhaps the best lesson of all, in this thread.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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