Burglar Shot in Flower Mound, TX

This is a discussion on Burglar Shot in Flower Mound, TX within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by farronwolf So that all can read what the statute really says, here it is for Texas. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT ...

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Thread: Burglar Shot in Flower Mound, TX

  1. #31
    Member Array TC-TX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    So that all can read what the statute really says, here it is for Texas.

    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Now, I believe that the little bold "and" may be the hardest thing for the shooter to prove. That one little word stuck there at the end of section 2 really opens up room for a DA to pursue this case. Regarless of what burglary, robbery, tresspass or whatever was taking place.
    The AND you refer to does NOT apply to this case. However the word OR at the end of 2A DOES apply. The Only Section that DOES (or will) Apply in this case is 9.42.2A

    It will be read like this (omitting the non-applicable points to the section):

    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
    A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime(.)

    2B does Not Apply here because 2A Does... it is either OR...

    ALSO PLEASE REMEMBER - the shooter does NOT have to PROVE ANYTHING. The state has to prove that the conditions did not exist to justify this homicide. The shooter is INNOCENT until proved guilty...
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    ...please allow this discussion to flow. Clamping down on avenues of discussion merely serves to limit the learning.
    Agreed CCW - I concur with your thoughts. I think the discussion is healthy. However, I think the indictment of an individual based on unreasonable conclusions and a lack of understanding of the Specific law under which his actions were performed is VERY Un-Healthy.

    I am merely pointing out the flaw in discussing a case where a person acting under the code of State law 'A' is being judged by the interpretation of State law 'B', and trying to prevent the sure-to-be-followed-by flamefest-of-an-indictment toward an individual who AT THIS POINT IN THIS FORUM is unable to defend himself...

    I would afford you he same courtesy, as I am sure we would all appreciate if we were in anothers shoes this morning...
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    ALSO PLEASE REMEMBER - the shooter does NOT have to PROVE ANYTHING. The state has to prove that the conditions did not exist to justify this homicide. The shooter is INNOCENT until proved guilty...[/QUOTE]

    Well regardless how our judicial system is set up, ie innocence until proven guilty. This guy during his trial or anyone else for that matter on trial, will be trying just as hard to prove his/her innocence, or at least doing their best to create reasonable doubt, as the DA will be trying to prove his guilt. That just seems to be that nature of the beast.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    However, it seems to me that shooting someone twice in the back as they flee a petty theft is not morally justified.

    It is a matter of not only what you can do, but what you should do.

    Matt
    Matt - I agree totally. However, as I have stated previously - I am NOT going to Monday-Morning-Quarterback this guy and stand in moral judgement of what did or did not happen. NOT MY JOB. I was not there, neither were you.
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  6. #35
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    For the record ...

    I was neither challenging the law, nor stated opinions. Neither am I sitting in judgement of the man accused. Rather, I was thinking "what if it were me?" Would it be worth it to risk the possibility of having to battle for (minimally) months (or more), and spend thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of dollars in an attempt to exonerate myself? And worse, would it be worth it to risk being taken away from my wife and young childres for 25 to life, over this incident (with the little bit of information provided)? If the "BG" was threatening me and I had no other alternative - Absolutely yes. That does not appear to be the case here. My answer to the above questions, based on the "facts" as presented, is simple: hell no! Incidentally, There's another thread right now (I believe it's on this forum - may be another) with many "posters" arguing essentially for defending only yourself and your loved ones and steering clear of helping others for fear of putting yourself in legal or physical jeopardy - How does this differ?

    Also, while I agree that if the deceased hadn't been there this wouldn't have happened, what if, as stated, this was just some kind of prank? Or hell, what if it was a burglary? Can you really, morally say he had it coming? (Provided that there was no imminent threat to life?) Can you argue that this is just another positive argument for the thinning of the gene pool? What the heck is he going to make off with in the middle of the night, from a closed business? As I'm sure we all agree, taking the life of another is no small matter. Just because it's a legal shoot - Doesn't make it the right thing to do.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KravJeff View Post
    Also, while I agree that if the deceased hadn't been there this wouldn't have happened, what if, as stated, this was just some kind of prank? Or hell, what if it was a burglary?
    NO WHAT IF's - By Statute and Definition IT WAS A BURGLARY - CASE CLOSED!

    What the heck is he going to make off with in the middle of the night, from a closed business?
    Are you kidding? It is a CAR DEALERSHIP. There are MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in vehicles on the lot At Risk Of Being Stolen. A former employee who knows where titles and keys are kept can be in and out in a matter of minutes.

    State law says he is in legitimate danger of these justifiable consequences if he chooses to perform the felonious act.

    Quit trying to martyr the BG here. Put the blame and the responsibility where it belongs...

    Would You or I act/react in a similar manner? I DO NOT KNOW and neither do you.

    I hope we never have the cause to find out.
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  8. #37
    Member Array KravJeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC-TX View Post
    NO WHAT IF's - By Statute and Definition IT WAS A BURGLARY - CASE CLOSED!


    Are you kidding? It is a CAR DEALERSHIP. There are MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in vehicles on the lot At Risk Of Being Stolen. A former employee who knows where titles and keys are kept can be in and out in a matter of minutes.

    State law says he is in legitimate danger of these justifiable consequences if he chooses to perform the felonious act.

    Quit trying to martyr the BG here. Put the blame and the responsibility where it belongs...

    Would You or I act/react in a similar manner? I DO NOT KNOW and neither do you.

    I hope we never have the cause to find out.
    I disagree Case Not Closed:

    I tend to utilize something other than Texas Law as my moral compass, and with available the information presented, it's just not that simple.

    Perhaps you're biased because you know the owner of the lot. Perhaps it's your "dark in Texas doctrine" ... Whatever the case, I'd never try to "martyr the BG," just offering an alternative perspective.

    If there was a chance I'd go to jail, not get to be with my kids while they grew up, for shooting someone in the back that had not threatened me physically, I hope to God I wouldn't do it. If it were my kid doing something stupid, or me when I was a kid for that matter, I'd hope that he (glad that I) wouldn't have to pay with his/my life. That's all I'm saying. Incidentally, there are always "what if's." That's how we learn, and part of the beauty of this type of forum/discussion.

    Incidentally: Of course there are "millions of dollars in inventory." Do you think he was going to throw all those nice new cars in his napsack? At worst, he gets a car!!! How much damage could this person really have done, that wouldn't be covered by insurance, short of injuring/killing the mechanic/security guard (which again, there was no indication of this that I've seen, and if there was then I agree - CASE CLOSED!)?

    As an aside, might be time to get that lock on the back door fixed ...

    I for one would rather give up my "stuff" than risk giving up my freedom, though I'd happily fight to the death to protect my family and/or myself.

    At least we can agree on this: Would You or I act/react in a similar manner? I DO NOT KNOW and neither do you.

    I hope we never have the cause to find out.

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