Would you take the shot??? - Page 3

Would you take the shot???

This is a discussion on Would you take the shot??? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Mr. Armstrong, I dont think anyone here is looking to shoot someone. In fact, if you were to visit the \'training/scenarios'forums here, I think you\'ll ...

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Thread: Would you take the shot???

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Mr. Armstrong,
    I dont think anyone here is looking to shoot someone. In fact, if you were to visit the \'training/scenarios'forums here, I think you\'ll notice that in each case, folks pulled cell phones not guns. I believe the question here was if you were in the same situation, would you shoot. Just for yukks, I asked my wife \"if some one were to enter our dwelling or place of business and take you hostage at knifepoint, and does not comply with my demands to free you, should I take the shot?\" Her answere was a definite \"yes\". I asked if I should offer money and try to negotiate, or buy time. \"no\", she says. \"cops have training for that, to buy time, you dont\". True, says I, but what if I just offer more money? Her response was that if holding her hostage has gotten him this far, why would he not load her into the car and drive off? Just wont work. This person has proven to be \'unlawful'by taking a hostage and demanding MY money. How can I trust him to let her go if I comply.
    Again, Mr. Armstrong, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but I must take exception to a generalization that folks here want to pull a gun. Just aint so. I\'m sure that if they truly believed there was another way, they\'d take it. And we\'re not talking about a stranger or unknown person being threatened, this is a man\'s wife. Half of who he now is. IF I have anything to do with it, my wife will not be forcefully separated from me. Just wont work. And of course, hindsight is always 20/20. Maybe dude would have just let her go, but how much time could her husband afford?

    Sincerely looking foreward to further responses, Sir.

    Dan


  2. #32
    Member Array Dwight55's Avatar
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    I hope Mr. Armstrong shoots better than he reads, as the money was offered, as well as safe passage.

    If you are going to carry or even keep a weapon in your house, . . . you first need to make the mental commitment to draw a line in the sand (actually many different lines, each dependent upon the perceived situation you might face). That line, once reached, demands action on your part.

    Give up, shoot, cry, kiss the bg\'s butt, scream: do whatever your training has taught you to do at this point. The most important thing that can be taken from this whole discussion is you ABSOLUTELY MUST BE PREPARED when the situation arises: you do not have time to weigh the possibilities, sample choose each one for a moment, determine which is the better, the better-better, and the best. You have to ACT, PERIOD!

    That is what the shop owner did, . . . that is what most of the posts here have implied, . . . and if you are going to be an effective voice for responsible firearm ownership, . . . you will have to do the same.

    May God bless,
    Dwight

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    Let\'s not get too preachy huh?? Lethal force worked pretty well in the scenario that prompted the thread, and moreover, the story mentions that the shot was taken after repeated demands for the robber to release his hostage. It wasn\'t the first response by any means.
    Gosh, let\'s not get to bent out of shape when someone posts an opinion that you disagree with, huh?? And if you will read what I wrote I don\'t say anything about this particular scenario, I have made some general comments regarding armed robberies and shootings. If sharing information bothers you for some reason, don\'t read the post. OK??

    Other members agreeing with the shopowners actions and/or saying they too would take the shot in similar circumstances is hardly an example of people eager to get in a gunfight.
    Then obviously my comments would not be directed at them, right? My comments are directed at those who seem to think that just because you can take a shot that you should, instead of using it as a last resort.
    Lastly, this wouldn\'t exactly be a gunfight.
    Hmmm. We are discussing a hostile situation using a gun to fight someone armed with a knife. Sure sounds like a gunfight to me.

  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    I dont think anyone here is looking to shoot someone. In fact, if you were to visit the \'training/scenarios'forums here, I think you\'ll notice that in each case, folks pulled cell phones not guns. I believe the question here was if you were in the same situation, would you shoot.
    OK, and I think all that I did was provide a little information about armed robberies that I had not seen discussed, and suggest that there seem to be some people here that are awfully fast to want to shoot instead of using it as a last resort. It astonishes me that some people would object to either of those ideas.
    Again, Mr. Armstrong, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but I must take exception to a generalization that folks here want to pull a gun. Just aint so. I\'m sure that if they truly believed there was another way, they\'d take it.
    No disrespect taken. A quick review of this thread showed about 12 \"shoot the BG\" responses, as opposed to half of that number showing alternative responses and/or including additional considerations. Now, if I miscounted I\'ll certainly stand corrected.

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    I hope Mr. Armstrong shoots better than he reads, as the money was offered, as well as safe passage.
    Perhaps instead of worrying about Mr. Armstrong\'s shooting and reading ability you should focus on your own shortcomings. If you will read the article again it clearly states,
    ďA spokesman for the Camden County Prosecutorís office said the suspect entered the store, grabbed the proprietorís wife and threatened her as he announced a robbery.
    The merchant then drew a handgun and shot the suspect once in the head when he ignored demands to release the woman.Ē
    You might want to direct yourself to the rest of the article also, where there is no mention of any offer of money or safe passage. So instead of concerning your self about my shooting and reading ability you might want to concern yourself with your own apparent problem of seeing things that are not there at all. Donít want to be shooting any of those imaginary opponents now, do we??
    That is what the shop owner did, . . . that is what most of the posts here have implied, . . . and if you are going to be an effective voice for responsible firearm ownership, . . . you will have to do the same.
    You donít know if that was what the shopowner did or not. There is nothing in the article to indicate that he had any training, or that he had weighed out possibilities and prepared in advance, or anything like that. You apparently are reading a lot of things in that article that are not there at all. If most of the posts here have implied that one should shoot as a first response, such as the shopowner, IMO that is a wrong response and is not responsible. As for being an effective voice for responsible firearms ownership, I fail to see how suggesting one should shoot as a last resort and one should be aware of all the facts in any way implies anything else.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Mr. Armstrong, very happy to see your replies. May I pose a question or two? None of the questions are meant to be demeaning or patronizing, and the written word is THE worst form of communication, but I am curious as to your answeres.
    1. Are you married, or have a significant other? Someone with whom you have children and/or developed a lifelong bond?
    2. Given the scenario in the original post, how much time would you/should you be willing to have elapse during the hostage situation?
    3. What do you feel would be a determinor of \'last resort\'? What actions on the part of the hostage taker would put you where you felt you must \'take the shot\'?

    Thank you for your time, and anxiosly awaiting your replies.

    Dan

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    My wife is the hostage? I take the shot. At seven yards I\'m 95% confident I can put the round through an eyeball if it\'s holding steady even for just a moment. I can dang sure make the shot into the cranial vault with 100% certainty at that range, possibly a bit more. The cranio-ocular shot is much preferred, but the cranial vault is a bigger target (about 4x6\") and just as effective. Also a shot right into the open mouth on a level plane will cut the brain stem...dang I fergit the term for that organ now. Of course this is with the understanding that I\'m carrying my favorite carry gun and caliber. No mouse guns or mouse calibers.

  8. #38
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    I\'m sure that someone could bring \"statistics\" to bear to
    try to convince me that I have better options than a head
    shot on the bad guy. \"Numbers\" to suggest that he
    will \"just\" take the money I throw at him, and unhand my wife

    My question is exactly
    WHAT has a bad guy with a knife to a woman\'s
    throat done to give you reason to believe he will simply
    take some sacrificial cash, put his knife in his pocket, tip
    his hat and go AWAY?!

    Without a doubt, every situation is different, he may be
    on drugs, he may be \"satisfied\" with a fistful of cash....
    but has he not PROVEN himself to be Violent? Has he
    not proven himself to be sociopathic, and irrational as
    he threatens your wife\'s life, as he looks down the ugly
    end of your pistol aimed at his eye?

    We have all heard and read of far too many news stories
    in which the robber/hostage taker gets the money he
    demands, and he shoots, or murders every last witness
    on the scene.

    If you have the skill to take the shot, why would you
    let HIM make the decision on whether your wife
    lives, dies or goes with him as insurance?

    Personally, I\'ll take the shot.



    --Travis--

  9. #39
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jdsumner
    Mr. Armstrong, very happy to see your replies. May I pose a question or two? None of the questions are meant to be demeaning or patronizing, and the written word is THE worst form of communication, but I am curious as to your answeres.
    1. Are you married, or have a significant other? Someone with whom you have children and/or developed a lifelong bond?
    2. Given the scenario in the original post, how much time would you/should you be willing to have elapse during the hostage situation?
    3. What do you feel would be a determinor of \'last resort\'? What actions on the part of the hostage taker would put you where you felt you must \'take the shot\'?

    Thank you for your time, and anxiosly awaiting your replies.

    Dan
    I agree, the written word, particularly in cyberspace with its inherent truncating, is not the best medium for exchange of ideas. But let\'s try:
    1. Yes. I have a wife and a daughter.
    2. I don\'t think there is a time issue at all. In fact, the longer things go on the better, IMO.
    3. \"Last resort\" to me indicates just that. If the BG has decided that he is going to kill someone instead of commit a robbery, then we need to start looking for a good time to cease all hostilities. But until we have at least tried to go through the lower levels we won\'t know if one of them would work with less danger to all involved.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    My question is exactly WHAT has a bad guy with a knife to a woman\'s throat done to give you reason to believe he will simply take some sacrificial cash, put his knife in his pocket, tip his hat and go AWAY?!
    Well, disregarding the rather silly hat tipping, there are two things. First, there are all those statistics and things that do indicate that there are common behaviors in these types of incidents. One of those behaviors is that in an armed robbery the BG wants money, not to commit a murder. He takes a hostage to insure compliance. If he wanted to kill someone he would have already done it. The second thing, of course, is that the BG has told you what he wants, and that is a pretty good indicator of what he will do.
    Without a doubt, every situation is different, he may be on drugs, he may be \"satisfied\" with a fistful of cash....but has he not PROVEN himself to be Violent? Has he not proven himself to be sociopathic, and irrational as he threatens your wife\'s life, as he looks down the ugly end of your pistol aimed at his eye?
    There are various levels of violence, and attitudes toward violence. As for being sociopathic and irrational--not in the least, at least not based on the information given. Few criminals, even violent criminals, can be considered sociopathic, and his actions are quite rational based on the typical armed robbery situation.
    We have all heard and read of far too many news stories in which the robber/hostage taker gets the money he demands, and he shoots, or murders every last witness on the scene.
    But those are the exceptions, not the norm. For every incident that ends up like that there are literally hundreds where the BG takes the money and leaves without any further problem.
    If you have the skill to take the shot,....
    That same shot is fumbled on a regular basis by some of the top shooters in the country under the relatively minor stress of an IDPA or IPSC match. The shot that is a piece of cake on the range, with nothing riding on it, isnít quite so easy other times. Just something to think about.

  11. #41
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    David (dropping the Mr. Armstrong here), my opinion differs with yours, but that\'s okay. In a real situation (with us in it with our respective spouses) at least one of us will be right. And every situation being different, we will each be right at least part of the time. It has occurred to me that where our current argument lies is our understanding of what was going on in the mind of the store owner. We have to assume he felt that his wife\'s life was in jeapordy and that there was no more that could be done. That may not be the case, but I like to think it was. If I realistically thought that I could talk the guy out of it, I would talk to him but when I made up my mind that talk had ended and I need to take a shot, (and I was confident I could succeed in hitting him and not my wife) I would take it. I like to think every one of us here would do \"the right thing\" in such a situation, whatever that may be, but hope none of us ever are. I take the decision to shoot very seriously and in the only shoot or stand down situation I have personally been involved in, I stood down because I could.

    Opinions are good as long as we remember that everyone has one and above all, they\'re entitled to it. ;)

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array David Armstrong's Avatar
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    Opinions are good as long as we remember that everyone has one and above all, they\'re entitled to it.
    Sure, but let\'s not confuse opinions with facts. The facts are that in the overwhelming majority of armed robberies nobody gets hurt. The facts are that when an armed robber gets the money they then leave without further incident in an overwhelming majority of the crimes. The facts are that unless a violent crime starts with a killing the overwhelming majority of events do not result in someone getting killed. The fact is that a head shot at 7-yards on the range is pretty easy, but is also a shot that is regularly missed by top shooters when under stress. The fact is that in most shootings the person is not immediately incapacitated when shot. One might have the opinion that it is better to just shoot the BG because it will be an easy shot and poses the least amount of danger, but the facts contradict that opinion. That\'s just the way things are, folks, and in my opinion one is better off making decisions based on the facts, so the more one knows the better.
    In a real situation (with us in it with our respective spouses) at least one of us will be right. And every situation being different, we will each be right at least part of the time.
    Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m not saying you should never shoot. I think the difference is if I am wrong, I can always continue forward to your position, If you are wrong, you can\'t go back.

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by David Armstrong
    Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m not saying you should never shoot. I think the difference is if I am wrong, I can always continue forward to your position, If you are wrong, you can\'t go back.
    Unless he gets the notion that he is at the very least caught and going to wind up in jail and decides to slit your wife\'s throat and let you shoot him (suicide by armed citizen). Nope, we\'re going to have to disagree on this one. I would be interested in what your wife would say. I know what mine would say, and I would shoot, period.

  14. #44
    Member Array SGeringer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by David Armstrong
    Let\'s not get too preachy huh?? Lethal force worked pretty well in the scenario that prompted the thread, and moreover, the story mentions that the shot was taken after repeated demands for the robber to release his hostage. It wasn\'t the first response by any means.
    Gosh, let\'s not get to bent out of shape when someone posts an opinion that you disagree with, huh?? And if you will read what I wrote I don\'t say anything about this particular scenario, I have made some general comments regarding armed robberies and shootings. If sharing information bothers you for some reason, don\'t read the post. OK??

    Other members agreeing with the shopowners actions and/or saying they too would take the shot in similar circumstances is hardly an example of people eager to get in a gunfight.
    Then obviously my comments would not be directed at them, right? My comments are directed at those who seem to think that just because you can take a shot that you should, instead of using it as a last resort.
    Lastly, this wouldn\'t exactly be a gunfight.
    Hmmm. We are discussing a hostile situation using a gun to fight someone armed with a knife. Sure sounds like a gunfight to me.
    1) I\'m certainly not bent out of shape. I was merely admonishing you for your inappropriate and unwarranted comments. That you agree or disagree with me is hardly something I\'m concerned with.

    2) A quick review of comments made has yet to yield anyone who has specifically indicated that they yearn to shoot someone, engage themselves in a hostage situation, or consider lethal force an appropriate first response even when other resolutions might be feasible, unless you consider a lack of qualifying statements or the absence of clearly stating in every post that lethal force should be a last resort only to be an indication of folks eager to get into a gunfight. If you\'re a fan of disclaimers, I suggest a consumer safety forum. The thread solicited people\'s opinion of the action taken and whether or not they would do the same thing, not whether or not lethal force should be a first, last, or intermediate option. That members would discuss related tactics or scenarios hardly means they\'d shoot first. So I repeat; don\'t get too preachy.

    3) I did not say it would not be a gunfight, I said it wouldn\'t EXACTLY be a gun fight, and did so in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.

    Thank you, come again.

  15. #45
    Member Array SGeringer's Avatar
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    Well, disregarding the rather silly hat tipping, there are two things. First, there are all those statistics and things that do indicate that there are common behaviors in these types of incidents. One of those behaviors is that in an armed robbery the BG wants money, not to commit a murder.
    That\'s great. Speaking for myself and probably many others, I would find ZERO consolation if the first 9 of 10 robberies committed in my area ended safely, and my beloved Mil was the victim in the 10th. Numbers are for statisticians and bean counters.....and they should hold little to no weight when/if you\'re embroiled in a lethal situation. Are you going to also factor in how many victims bleed out from ballistic trauma vs. how many survive in deciding whether or not to act?? How about ambulance response times? The Rockwell number of the perps knife?? The rating of your nearest hospital in US News and World Reports??

    Hopefully my experience with such matters will remain theoretical, but in the event it doesn\'t remain that way, my thinking will be focused and simplified.

    Lethal threat, yes/no.
    Using variables like location, distance, backstop, etc, is deployment of sidearm viable, yes/no.
    If no, what other actions should/can be taken.

    If he conveys lethal intent, treat him like a lethal threat as if he was there to murder people, not rob them.

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