So I thought I was just being paranoid...

This is a discussion on So I thought I was just being paranoid... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BadgerJ I think part of the problem here is that we tend to give people rights, such as 'the right to panhandle', ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array 00z28's Avatar
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    So I thought I was just being paranoid...

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    I think part of the problem here is that we tend to give people rights, such as 'the right to panhandle', 'the right to approach' and they don't actually have such rights.

    I think you waited much too long to disengage, perhaps you wanted to see how you'd react, if you could react quickly, IDK. I think that if he had pulled a gun he'd have shot your dad before you could react.

    I'd suggest in the future you do not stand there and engage panhandlers. You owe them nothing. It's OK to be rude, OK to drive away.
    Everyone is entitled their opinion. But being there an living the situation, I have no doubt in my mind that I could have defended my father.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00z28 View Post
    With all due respect, I was 2 feet from my father with enough room to defend him if need be.
    With all due respect, in your OP you stated you were sitting in the truck. That is a poor (the worst) place to be if he needs you in a hurry. The mere act of getting out of the truck and walking up behind the guy would probably give him second thoughts if he were bent on committing a criminal act and as you walked around the truck you could quickly scan the area for accomplices since your father was probably concentrating on the problem he was nose to nose with.

    Now you are getting all defensive.

    If you aren't interested in constructive criticism why did you post your experience?

    Jim
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  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00z28 View Post
    Everyone is entitled their opinion. But being there an living the situation, I have no doubt in my mind that I could have defended my father.
    We're talking split seconds. It takes a second to draw. What if he'd have drawn out a metallic cellphone? If you're keyed up enough to draw and shoot, you don't have time to asses what is in his hands. Why risk it? Drive away and problem is solved. Also, shooting from inside the truck you have hearing issues post shoot. I agree with Jim, get out and go up behind the guy (or drive away). You're putting yourself at unnecessary risk just to be macho. Ask yourself if you'd have counseled your wife or SO to do the same as you did - stay in the truck hand on gun, ready to shoot if panhandler draws a gun. I doubt it.

  5. #34
    Member Array 00z28's Avatar
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    So I thought I was just being paranoid...

    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    With all due respect, in your OP you stated you were sitting in the truck. That is a poor (the worst) place to be if he needs you in a hurry. The mere act of getting out of the truck and walking up behind the guy would probably give him second thoughts if he were bent on committing a criminal act and as you walked around the truck you could quickly scan the area for accomplices since your father was probably concentrating on the problem he was nose to nose with.

    Now you are getting all defensive.

    If you aren't interested in constructive criticism why did you post your experience?

    Jim
    I drew the line on constructive criticism when you ended your statement by saying "this family stands together, come what may". If you're going to imply your family's superiority or that my family doesn't stand together, at that point, I lost all interest in your post. Constructive criticism I can take, but I am very close with my family, and as other have stated... 11 rounds through the door glass with my hand on my gun hardly puts me in the "worst" position to defend my father.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    I think part of the problem here is that we tend to give people rights, such as 'the right to panhandle', 'the right to approach' and they don't actually have such rights.
    I hate to burst your "me" bubble, but that panhandler has the exact same right to be in that same public place as you do. You don't own or possess any space in a convenience store parking lot. You, in your rightiousness, cannot make demands on anyone else where they have a right to be. And unless panhandling is explicitly prohibited by law, it is legal.

    Your option is to say no thank you and go on about your business. Your "rights' do not trump anyone else's right. To paraphrase you, I think part of the problem is we tend to deny other people's rights and claim it as ours and only ours.
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    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  7. #36
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbguy29577 View Post
    Paranoid is the new normal for most of us.
    As we, here, all know: awareness + preparedness <> paranoia.
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  8. #37
    Member Array 00z28's Avatar
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    So I thought I was just being paranoid...

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    We're talking split seconds. It takes a second to draw. What if he'd have drawn out a metallic cellphone? If you're keyed up enough to draw and shoot, you don't have time to asses what is in his hands. Why risk it? Drive away and problem is solved. Also, shooting from inside the truck you have hearing issues post shoot. I agree with Jim, get out and go up behind the guy (or drive away). You're putting yourself at unnecessary risk just to be macho. Ask yourself if you'd have counseled your wife or SO to do the same as you did - stay in the truck hand on gun, ready to shoot if panhandler draws a gun. I doubt it.
    We did drive away. Thank you. If there were ever a need to use a firearm for self defense, my hearing would be one of my lowest priorities. I'd rather be alive with hearing loss than the other way around. Maybe I didn't describe the situation well. But you referenced just a few seconds. That's more than the time it would have taken for me to get around the truck and behind the man. The entire encounter took maybe 20 seconds. Maybe 10 of which were at my fathers window. I'd rather be focused on the situation, in a position that I can shoot/draw if necessary than to worry about exiting the truck and walking around. By the time is reach the other side, everything was over. I will agree that if I were outside the truck I would have stayed that way until the situation cleared. But as I was already in the vehicle, I feel better with my shot through the side window than to take the precious seconds to relocate myself and possibly startle the man into doing something he wouldn't have.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00z28 View Post
    I drew the line on constructive criticism when you ended your statement by saying "this family stands together, come what may". If you're going to imply your family's superiority or that my family doesn't stand together, at that point, I lost all interest in your post. Constructive criticism I can take, but I am very close with my family, and as other have stated... 11 rounds through the door glass with my hand on my gun hardly puts me in the "worst" position to defend my father.
    Have a nice thread, Jim is gone.

    Jim

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I hate to burst your "me" bubble, but that panhandler has the exact same right to be in that same public place as you do. You don't own or possess any space in a convenience store parking lot. You, in your rightiousness, cannot make demands on anyone else where they have a right to be. And unless panhandling is explicitly prohibited by law, it is legal.

    Your option is to say no thank you and go on about your business. Your "rights' do not trump anyone else's right. To paraphrase you, I think part of the problem is we tend to deny other people's rights and claim it as ours and only ours.
    Yup.

    Can't be disrupting other people's ability to be anywhere they have every right to be. Which can be the strongest point of leverage a potential assailant has for getting inside our defenses.

    All we can do is to remain aware and prepared to the degree possible, being capable of exploding as violently and ruthlessly as needed in order to redirect and thwart an attack if it occurs. Anything more puts us into the hot seat, legally speaking, if we're not careful.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; January 27th, 2013 at 11:38 AM. Reason: format/clarity
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  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I hate to burst your "me" bubble, but that panhandler has the exact same right to be in that same public place as you do. You don't own or possess any space in a convenience store parking lot. You, in your rightiousness, cannot make demands on anyone else where they have a right to be. And unless panhandling is explicitly prohibited by law, it is legal.

    Your option is to say no thank you and go on about your business. Your "rights' do not trump anyone else's right. To paraphrase you, I think part of the problem is we tend to deny other people's rights and claim it as ours and only ours.
    You're missing my point. Because we tend to be 'polite' we give the panhandler rights to stop us and ask a question. This is not a requirement. If one gets too close you have the ability (not a right, just an option) to say 'get the freak back'. It's OK to be rude if you feel encroached upon. We have to learn to give ourselves permission to be rude to say 'get back'.

    He might have a right to stand in a spot, but there's no requirement I stop and talk, and thus let down my guard. Experienced panhandlers learn to prey on your socialized response. Learn to break that pattern if necessary.
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00z28 View Post
    With all due respect, I was 2 feet from my father with enough room to defend him if need be.
    Tactically you were in a very lousy position. You were seated, confined and in a line in front of the panhandler. If things had gone south you would have had to be very good and very, very lucky to have survived. How fast can you draw from a seated position and get a shot around your father who may be moving dynamically avoiding an assault into a BG?

    It is a common technique called stacking, where when fighting multiple opponents you maneuver and line them up IE; stack them to give yourself the tactical advantage. He had you and dad stacked in the cab by your own actions. The suggestion to exit the cab was valid, allowing you the freedom of movement to deal with the situation.
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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    You're missing my point. Because we tend to be 'polite' we give the panhandler rights to stop us and ask a question. This is not a requirement. If one gets too close you have the ability (not a right, just an option) to say 'get the freak back'. It's OK to be rude if you feel encroached upon. We have to learn to give ourselves permission to be rude to say 'get back'.

    He might have a right to stand in a spot, but there's no requirement I stop and talk, and thus let down my guard. Experienced panhandlers learn to prey on your socialized response. Learn to break that pattern if necessary.
    That's exactly right, you do have the right to not stop, to say no, and to carry on. But bare in mind, rudeness, of which there is far too much these days, begets rudeness--often multipied exponentially. So if you feel it's proper to say, "Get the freak back,"--easily taken as a threat--and trip what may be a mentally ill person's hair trigger, go right ahead and express your "rights" as rudely as you wish.
    "Sorry, can't help you today," has always produced an amicable repy and a walk-away.
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  14. #43
    Member Array WarMachine's Avatar
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    Good thing you and your dad were alert. It's a shame that you can't trust anyone nowadays.
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  15. #44
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    That's exactly right, you do have the right to not stop, to say no, and to carry on. But bare in mind, rudeness, of which there is far too much these days, begets rudeness--often multipied exponentially. So if you feel it's proper to say, "Get the freak back,"--easily taken as a threat--and trip what may be a mentally ill person's hair trigger, go right ahead and express your "rights" as rudely as you wish.
    "Sorry, can't help you today," has always produced an amicable repy and a walk-away.
    I agree.

    A very firm, "I can't help you" does not have to be rude but can change the dynamics of the situation instantly. If they continue you can tell them to "stay back" and you can still move to put something between you and the person or put yourself in a more advantagous position. You don't have to curse at someone to let them know not to mess with you. Don't look to Hollywood for any tactical answers.

    Jim
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  16. #45
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    Glad everything turned out ok. Hindsight being 20/20 and all one thing I think you could have done to help avoid the problem in the first place, would have been to not avoid the guy. By getting in the truck first you avoided the guy but left your father as being potentially more vulnerable. Wether he wanted to cause a problem or just panhandle most people would be less likely to get aggressive if the odds aren't in they're favor. Even though you were still there for your father and were a threat if this guy tried to do something you probably didn't appear like a threat any longer to him. And thats possibly why he went to your dad. Not explaining well but hope that makes sense.

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