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Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns)

This is a discussion on Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I carry my 1911 the way John Browning designed and intended it to be carried--cocked and locked....

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Thread: Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns)

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    I carry my 1911 the way John Browning designed and intended it to be carried--cocked and locked.
    Live to ride, ride to live. Harley Road King And keep a .45 handy Kimber Custom TLE II


  2. #17
    Member Array R040607's Avatar
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    Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by HYDRO View Post
    Unless a person is combat experienced they should never carry a 1911 frame gun COCKED, with or without the safety on. Inexperienced shooters, (combat inexperienced) will be nervous, and up on adrenalin, won't have time for or be very able to locate the safety, and have the gun IN BATTERY in 2-4 seconds. Much longer and you are probably dead anyway, gun goes off prematurely or can't get the safety off, your dead. For me, no safety and first click, hammer off the pin.
    This really is terrible. Training with one's firearm is the most important factor in the ability to manipulate it under duress. And while formal military or law enforcement certainly qualifies as in-depth training, I can assure you that there are many other forms of training that allow one to become adept at understanding and operating quickly.

    My question relates to concern about the thumb safety being accidentally disengaged. JMB had the brilliance to place a second safety on the 1911 which makes it safer than many other carry pistols (even though they have a heavier trigger). But I was just curious if anyone has ever had any issues with accidental disengagement.

  3. #18
    Member Array nmbr5ml's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYDRO View Post
    I was offering my opinion not boasting, I don't boast about my experience, was just trying to help the guy out. for show means show of force, at times is used hoping not to have to use deadly force, drawing your gun with a warning as opposed to drawing and firing. There is nothing "dangerous" about a chambered round with the hammer on first cock, can not be hit to fire, trigger will not release it. For me, this is the best way to carry a 1911 frame gun. People in an actual combat situation are very nervous with a lot adrenalin flowing. Drawing a 1911, releasing the safety and firing and hitting the target,(a person not a piece of paper) is not easy in a short amount of time. A customized 1911 can have a 2.5lb pull with 1.5mm travel to stop and fire. A harder pull, 4-5lb and 5mm or more travel lessens the accuracy added to the action of releasing the safety verses just cocking and firing (to me) can be disastrous. You know guys, interesting opinions here, interesting
    Apologies OP as I know none of this helps with your question. I think the concern about carrying a 1911 as you state, Hydro, is that it requires you to pull the trigger with all safeties deactivated and lower the hammer with your thumb. You may feel comfortable doing this, but even you have to admit that you're one wrong twitch or slick thumb from an ND.

    Also, combat experience is useful in a gunfight, but it is absolutely not helpful in safe weapon handling. I've seen guys who have been in countless gunfights, far more experienced than me in hairy situations, do very dumb things in training and around the base, to include situations where a shot was unintentionally fired. You avoid accidents by building good habits and not doing dumb things. If anything combat vets (like us) tend to be cavalier and do more dumb things, like manually lowering a hammer over a live round.

  4. #19
    Member Array nmbr5ml's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R040607 View Post
    This really is terrible. Training with one's firearm is the most important factor in the ability to manipulate it under duress. And while formal military or law enforcement certainly qualifies as in-depth training, I can assure you that there are many other forms of training that allow one to become adept at understanding and operating quickly.

    My question relates to concern about the thumb safety being accidentally disengaged. JMB had the brilliance to place a second safety on the 1911 which makes it safer than many other carry pistols (even though they have a heavier trigger). But I was just curious if anyone has ever had any issues with accidental disengagement.
    I no longer carry a 1911, but when I did, in an IWB rig, there were probably hundreds of times I drew it out to put it in the safe and found the super extended extra long thumb safety switched off. I didn't really sweat it, since the trigger was covered in the holster and I knew there was no way I'd be on the trigger unless my intent was to shoot the gun, but yes it certainly does happen. If anything it seems less likely in the carry method you mentioned, unless your 1911 has an ambi thumb safety.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...MOST 1911 shooters have/will never be combat experienced...I carried my 1911 for 5-6 years cocked and locked as Father Browning designed it to be carried...and even when I was nervous and up on adrenalin,I was able to locate the safety...had time to disengage it if necessary...catching burglars and armed robbers...and following the manufacturer's instructions...shifting my grip on the weapon to thumb-cock it would have been a much bigger problem...that's why it's designed not to have to do that...my gun never went off prematurely...the grip safety and trigger had that problem solved...no squeeze, no boom...
    Quote Originally Posted by HYDRO View Post
    Unless a person is combat experienced they should never carry a 1911 frame gun COCKED, with or without the safety on. Inexperienced shooters, (combat inexperienced) will be nervous, and up on adrenalin, won't have time for or be very able to locate the safety, and have the gun IN BATTERY in 2-4 seconds. Much longer and you are probably dead anyway, gun goes off prematurely or can't get the safety off, your dead. For me, no safety and first click, hammer off the pin.
    BestOverallGuy likes this.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...I'm glad your way got you through...thanks for your service...but that doesn't change the way the weapon was designed, manufactured, and the way the instructions were written...it's a human thing to want everyone to do things the way we do, but it doesn't carry the force of authority, or of thousands of lifetimes of carrying it the intended way...
    Quote Originally Posted by HYDRO View Post
    I just wonder how many of the "good advice" writers have been in combat, drawn a 1911 and used it in action. I have, that's how I carried it, and I'm still here to talk about it.
    R040607 and Otis2 like this.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    I have carried both a 1911 and a Browning Hi power with both cocked and locked for 20+ years, never had an issue.

    The ONLY time I ever had an AD (accidental discharge) was during one of my early matches and I had a vertical holster for my AMT Hardballer longslide. You had to drop the hammer on a loaded chamber to holster, in order to be ready to start your round. Surprising when your thumb slips and it goes bang. Luckily I was pointed downrange when it happened.

    Needless to say I got rid of the holster and started to carry in a safer fashion.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R040607 View Post
    I am right handed, but I like to carry my firearm in a left-handed holster at 5:30. This has never been an issue when carrying striker-fired pistols or revolvers. But if f I am carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, should I be concerned that the safety would be exposed to possibly disengaging accidentally?? My gun is in excellent condition and takes a deliberate movement to disengage the safety, but I wanted your opinion.
    Your trigger is covered - which is the main thing. If it were me, and I was going to carry in that position with a 1911 - I would want a holster that was well boned to the gun with the safety on to help it stay in position.

    I wouldn't carry in that position though. And how would you find a left handed holster with reverse cant to use?

    Austin

  9. #24
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    From my Colt 1911 Safety and Instruction Manual. Copyright 1996.

    Page 17: "Safety Stop on Hammer.... (Printed in the book in Italics for emphasis) The Safety Stop is not a manual safety and should not be engaged by hand."

    Page 19: (Large Triangle in bold with an Exclamation Point in it. Larger print size ALL CAPS and Bolded) "DO NOT CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITH THE HAMMER DOWN ON A LIVE CARTRIDGE. To do so means you must lower the hammer. To lower the hammer you must squeeze the trigger. When you squeeze the trigger you dissengage the firing pin block. This is not a safe condition"

    Page 26: "CARRYING MODES NOTE: The pistol may be carried in any one of the following three modes according to your needs.
    Mode 1: MAGAZINE EMPTY, CHAMBER EMPTY.
    Mode 2: MAGAZINE LOADED, CHAMBER EMPTY.
    Mode 3: MAGAZINE LOADED, CHAMBER LOADED, HAMMER COCKED, SAFETY ON." (note on Mode 3) "Use Mode 3 when you MUST BE PREPARED to use the pistol IMMEDIATELY without warning."

    These are quoted directly from Colt. I used caps where they did. I used "notes" where they did.

    Any questions?
    aus71383, Otis2, R040607 and 2 others like this.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array grouse's Avatar
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    OK,OK, Now back to the question. Try This: Carry your pistol cocked & locked but with a empty chamber. Carry it around your home in & out of your car any place "safe" & just see if it unlocks. If it does, don't carry condition one.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYDRO View Post
    I have carried a 1911 frame for 40 years, never cocked. It is too easy to have an accident. Getting it out to the ready and cocking can be done in 2-4 seconds if you have to use it. just getting it out for show, better it isn't cocked. If you are not very experienced in combative situations, a cocked single action with a trigger pull under 4lb WILL go off without you even thinking about it. For those who have never been in combat, better with a double action trigger, you won't accidently shoot someone or yourself.
    I got my first 1911 and my first hi-power when I was 16 years old.
    I have never been in combat, but I assure you I am proficient with a 1911 and similar weapons... because I've taken the time to train with them.
    I carry cocked and locked, I have never had a ND and I do not draw my weapon "for show". In the 2-4 seconds it takes you to ready your weapon by cocking the hammer, I can draw from concealment, put 3-4 rounds in center-mass at 10 yards and return to a high-ready condition.
    I'm now in my mid-50's and still see the value in carrying a 1911 style weapon as the designer intended.
    aus71383 likes this.
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  12. #27
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    Re: Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns)

    Some good comments and advice by most here, but not all. If carrying a 1911, it should be cocked and locked. I strongly recommend ambi safeties on all firearms equipped with safeties in case your primary hand/arm are injured or otherwise incapacitated. Also, carrying in a left hand holster for right hand draw from 5:30 needs serious reconsideration.

    just sayin'

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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Easy8's Avatar
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    I would think if your going to carry a 1911 you had better practice with it till its second nature, that being said the only way to carry it is cocked an locked if your not comfortable with that try a different weapon. I like the sp101 as a primary an never feel under gunned.

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Rcher's Avatar
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    To the OP ...

    I have owned several 1911 pistols since the early '70's. I was issued 3 different 1911's in the military. I was instructed to always carry condition 1 by the military and also by private instruction. In almost 40 years, I have never had a problem or a malfunction that wasnt human error. The pistol has always performed as designed. My concern with your post is that you carry at 5:30. To me, it's already an awkward position to carry any weapon for personal defense. As you draw, you most likely pass your aiming point by virtue of the gun's holstered position and then you will need to bring it back on target. This is wasted time for personal defense. Carrying a defense weapon at 3 o'clock or 3:30 is a much more natural position for immediately aquiring your target. Most people already have muscle memory with their hand from a side position to a finger point forward. In essence, this is the same action required for drawing a handgun from the 3 o'clock(ish) position.

    I'm not here to tell you that your way is right or wrong, just not as time effective and efficient as it could be. IMHO YMMV
    Bark'n likes this.
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  15. #30
    Member Array Yetiman's Avatar
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    I am going to re post what I said in the other thread a day or so ago on the same subject:

    I carry a 1911 type pistol 80% of the time, and always condition one, cocked and locked.

    There are several safety features in place on these pistols to prevent a negligent discharge from rough handling or a high G force impact (dropping it).

    There is the grip safety which prevents the trigger from moving if the gun is not held firmly. There is the thumb safety which prevents the sear from moving when engaged even if the grip safety is disengaged and the trigger pulled.

    There is the half cock notch on the hammer, so even if the thumb safety was not engaged (and even if the grip safety were taped down to disable it) and you threw the gun in the air and hit it hard enough with a baseball bat to where the sear moved enough to drop the hammer, the half cock notch would capture the sear and prevent the hammer from dropping all the way.

    On a properly set up series 70 type pistol, with no firing pin block, The firing pin should be light enough and the spring strong enough to keep the pin from striking the primer if dropped on concrete muzzle down.

    On a series 80 type gun with a firing pin safety, the trigger must be pulled (meaning the grip safety is de-activated and the thumb safety is de-activated) in order for the firing pin block to be moved out of the way for the firing pin to be able to move at all.

    So yea, while it seems scary at first to see a 1911 in a holster with the hammer back, there is over a century of thought and engineering keeping that hammer back until you pull the gun from the holster, grip if firmly, swipe the thumb safety off, and pull the trigger.

    I will say, for me personally I wasn't totally comfortable with it till I figured out the function of the half cock notch. Been carrying em for going on 20 years now though.
    Bark'n likes this.
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