Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns)

[Rotorblade]

Question......
I keep seeing people post that Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. I've also read that this isn't true and the cocked method of carry was started by calvary in the field because it proved to be safer. Does anyone know the true history?

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[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Snub44]

...it was the grip safety that was required by the Army...and added by Browning...not the thumb safety...

[varmonter]

I have seen this post ad nauseum in most forums. Hydro states he would rather thumb the hammer back in a stress situation. I think this is flirting with disaster. If it works for him great. But he is surely in the minority. Best advise I read here was to carry the gun cocked and locked for a few days with an empty chamber until you are confident that your gun functions as designed. Just practice swiping the safety and racking a round. Just in case

[GunsAndViolince]

I think the operative phrase here is, "Condition One and Only." Sorry if somebody else said that; I didn't absolutely scour the thread as I was reading.

Oh, and about the holster fitting the gun....I actually tried a holster for a couple days once (carrying at home) that didn't truly fit my gun. Guess what? The safety flipped off. That's why people say the holster must fit the gun.

Now, back to the OPs post: At 5:30 in a left handed holster? Are you like that guy on the Fantastic 4 with the stretchy arms?

Thinking...smoke...coming...out...ears.....5:30... in a left handed holster?

[R040607]

To the OP ...

I have owned several 1911 pistols since the early '70's. I was issued 3 different 1911's in the military. I was instructed to always carry condition 1 by the military and also by private instruction. In almost 40 years, I have never had a problem or a malfunction that wasnt human error. The pistol has always performed as designed. My concern with your post is that you carry at 5:30. To me, it's already an awkward position to carry any weapon for personal defense. As you draw, you most likely pass your aiming point by virtue of the gun's holstered position and then you will need to bring it back on target. This is wasted time for personal defense. Carrying a defense weapon at 3 o'clock or 3:30 is a much more natural position for immediately aquiring your target. Most people already have muscle memory with their hand from a side position to a finger point forward. In essence, this is the same action required for drawing a handgun from the 3 o'clock(ish) position.

I'm not here to tell you that your way is right or wrong, just not as time effective and efficient as it could be. IMHO YMMV

There have been several replies urging me to reconsider my carry placement, so I am doing so.

Let me clarify some. Look at the attached image (not me, stolen from Google). I like to carry slightly more towards my back, but with the gun placed with the butt facing towards my right. For my 1911, I'd likely have a custom holster made with a backwards cant so that the draw would be smooth.

I have trouble carrying at 3:00 the way that many people do. I don't have a build that allows for much concealment there.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1359355161.773559.jpg

[Bark'n]

...it was the grip safety that was required by the Army...and added by Browning...not the thumb safety...

This is true. His original design for what is now the 1911 did not have the grip safety back in 1910.

The US Calvary requested the redesign to include the grip safety because while mounted on horseback, during combat, they believed there was a possibility for negligent discharges if the trooper did not have a solid grip on the gun while being jostled around on horseback. Browning added the grip safety for that reason, but felt it was unneeded.

In 1922 FN produced the John Browning designed .32 acp pistol, also without a grip safety. Browning also designed the .32 acp cartridge to go with it.

His next great pistol design the P35, produced in 1935 and affectionately known as the Browning Hi-Power is also without a grip safety.

[JediTalen]

I was offering my opinion not boasting, I don't boast about my experience, was just trying to help the guy out. for show means show of force, at times is used hoping not to have to use deadly force, drawing your gun with a warning as opposed to drawing and firing. There is nothing "dangerous" about a chambered round with the hammer on first cock, can not be hit to fire, trigger will not release it. For me, this is the best way to carry a 1911 frame gun. People in an actual combat situation are very nervous with a lot adrenalin flowing. Drawing a 1911, releasing the safety and firing and hitting the target,(a person not a piece of paper) is not easy in a short amount of time. A customized 1911 can have a 2.5lb pull with 1.5mm travel to stop and fire. A harder pull, 4-5lb and 5mm or more travel lessens the accuracy added to the action of releasing the safety verses just cocking and firing (to me) can be disastrous. You know guys, interesting opinions here, interesting

Hydro, I'm sorry but you are carrying your 1911 in a very unsafe condition, there isn't a true "half cock" position in the mechanism, and the gun can, and will, discharge if the hammer is struck hard enough (ie if the weapon falls) there is a reason the thumb safety won't engage with the hammer down. John Moses designed the thing to be safely carried in either Condition one (cocked and locked) or with an empty chamber, what you are advocating is not safeand I implore you to cease that unsafe practice immediately.

[Richard58]

A 1911 is supposed to be carried cocked and locked. That is the way it was designed to be. It is not an accident waiting to happen if carried cocked and locked. For a 1911 to fire u have to take the safety off and the grip safety has to be pressed at the same time as the trigger in pulled. The 1911 is one of the safest pistol design there is.

[R040607]

There have been several replies urging me to reconsider my carry placement, so I am doing so.

Let me clarify some. Look at the attached image (not me, stolen from Google). I like to carry slightly more towards my back, but with the gun placed with the butt facing towards my right. For my 1911, I'd likely have a custom holster made with a backwards cant so that the draw would be smooth.

I have trouble carrying at 3:00 the way that many people do. I don't have a build that allows for much concealment there.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1359355161.773559.jpg

So (as quoted above) is this a bad way to carry on my body??

Carrying cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911. All knowledgeable people agree on this (unless one insists on empty chamber).

[aus71383]

It's not "bad" - it's just not optimal. If you go to draw your gun, it would be easy for someone to pin your arm. It is a hard position to retain the gun from. You will not know if you're printing or not. It's a long ways away from where your arms naturally are, so drawing will be slower than other positions. If you fall down (or are made to fall) on your back - it's going to be right on your spine/sciatic nerve - likely to cause injury. When you are in public and people bump against you - they'll be bumping your gun. Your arm can't be back there to cover it or protect it. I'm sure others can chip in a host of other reasons why it's less than ideal.

Austin

[HAWKEYE50]

Cocked and Locked for 15 years, daily carry. Occasionally I would bump the safety off, no big deal. The firearm still has the Grip Safety, and the Finger OFF THE TRIGGER, is the BEST safety. I also carried Lefty.

[Eichorn]

It's not "bad" - it's just not optimal. If you go to draw your gun, it would be easy for someone to pin your arm. It is a hard position to retain the gun from. You will not know if you're printing or not. It's a long ways away from where your arms naturally are, so drawing will be slower than other positions. If you fall down (or are made to fall) on your back - it's going to be right on your spine/sciatic nerve - likely to cause injury. When you are in public and people bump against you - they'll be bumping your gun. Your arm can't be back there to cover it or protect it. I'm sure others can chip in a host of other reasons why it's less than ideal.

I think Austin hit all the high points. When I tried it I just found it so damned uncomfortable when sitting in a chair or vehicle. Have you considered carrying at 3:30? It's a bit easier to conceal than a true 3:00, but still a strong carry position.

[wondering]

Forgive me for rehashing but I want to make sure I'm getting the OP's holster position correct. It's a lefty holster at 5:30 for a righty shooter. So you would need to put your right hand between the pistol and your back to draw it (palm to your 6). If I read that right, I would be very concerned that you are muzzle-sweeping yourself during the draw stroke. You would need to draw with your palm to your 6, so you'd need to flip your hand to have your palm to your 9 to aim and fire unless you took a very wide draw stroke and swung the gun out to your right and did a vertical hand flip (muzzle to the ground) to get your palm to your 9 in aiming position. (did any of that make sense?)

I would think that would be very dangerous with any firearm.

Also, for my knowledge-

Does the 1911 have a half cock or not? I'm reading two different versions in this post. If it is fully cocked and the hammer receives a blow will it stop at half-cock even with safeties off?

[OD*]

Question......
I keep seeing people post that Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. I've also read that this isn't true and the cocked method of carry was started by calvary in the field because it proved to be safer. Does anyone know the true history?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

John Browning did not set down and intentionally design the pistol from the very beginning to be carried cocked and locked. The 1911 was originally designed as a military pistol to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber (that's why they had those long wide hammers originally). The original design had no thumb safety at all, the US Calvary requested a safety of some sort be incorporated into the weapon system so that our mounted troopers would not have to let go of the reins to place the M1910 (M1911 w/the safety) into a safe condition, Browning and Colt designers came up with the thumb safety. The C&L option was intended to be used only until the trooper was dismounted and could safely place the weapon in Condition 3 carry as called for by the military. With the addition of the thumb safety, cocked and locked became the correct way to carry the 1911 for immediate use.

You can see the absence of a thumb safety on JMB's personal weapon.

[high pockets]

Forgive me for rehashing but I want to make sure I'm getting the OP's holster position correct. It's a lefty holster at 5:30 for a righty shooter. So you would need to put your right hand between the pistol and your back to draw it (palm to your 6). If I read that right, I would be very concerned that you are muzzle-sweeping yourself during the draw stroke. You would need to draw with your palm to your 6, so you'd need to flip your hand to have your palm to your 9 to aim and fire unless you took a very wide draw stroke and swung the gun out to your right and did a vertical hand flip (muzzle to the ground) to get your palm to your 9 in aiming position. (did any of that make sense?)

I would think that would be very dangerous with any firearm.

...

I AM a lefty, and I just tried sliding one of my holsters to the 5:30 position, and I can't figure out how to even get my right hand wrapped around the grip of my pistol. The holster cants away from my right hand. Oh well, I'm glad I don't have the OP's problem. A 5:30 carry is so close to being SOB, that it is something I would never be doing, anyway.