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Cocked & Locked Carry (Safety Concerns)

8K views 69 replies 37 participants last post by  SmokinFool 
#1 ·
I am right handed, but I like to carry my firearm in a left-handed holster at 5:30. This has never been an issue when carrying striker-fired pistols or revolvers. But if f I am carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, should I be concerned that the safety would be exposed to possibly disengaging accidentally?? My gun is in excellent condition and takes a deliberate movement to disengage the safety, but I wanted your opinion.
 
#3 ·
"I am right handed, but I like to carry my firearm in a left-handed holster at 5:30. This has never been an issue when carrying striker-fired pistols or revolvers. But if f I am carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, should I be concerned that the safety would be exposed to possibly disengaging accidentally?? My gun is in excellent condition and takes a deliberate movement to disengage the safety, but I wanted your opinion."

If you have done a function check and everything is operating correctly then your 1911 still cannot fire because the thumb safety needs to be OFF - AND...the "grip safety" needs to be depressed before the trigger can move rearward. The grip safety physically blocks the trigger.

Also any time you draw your 1911 from the holster your index finger should be off the trigger so if that index finger is off the trigger..
How could the pistol discharge even if the thumb safety was in the OFF position?

Answer: It cannot.

Your thumb safety should have a very positive "click" on and off. It should not ever move to the off safe position until you intentionally click it off.
If your thumb safety seems mushy and without a positive click then your firearm should go to a gunsmith to have that fixed.
It would be a very easy and minor repair.
 
#5 ·
I have carried a 1911 frame for 40 years, never cocked. It is too easy to have an accident. Getting it out to the ready and cocking can be done in 2-4 seconds if you have to use it. just getting it out for show, better it isn't cocked. If you are not very experienced in combative situations, a cocked single action with a trigger pull under 4lb WILL go off without you even thinking about it. For those who have never been in combat, better with a double action trigger, you won't accidently shoot someone or yourself.
 
#6 ·
Are you saying that you carry it with the weapon's grip on your right side and slide top on the left? Essentially, the left side of the gun is outward facing when in the holster? There are two ways to carry it, that is more preferable when SOB carrying for me. As to your concerns, it's a 1911, be confident with it in condition one, that is the intent of the weapon. But always be aware of that fact.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Unless a person is combat experienced they should never carry a 1911 frame gun COCKED, with or without the safety on. Inexperienced shooters, (combat inexperienced) will be nervous, and up on adrenalin, won't have time for or be very able to locate the safety, and have the gun IN BATTERY in 2-4 seconds. Much longer and you are probably dead anyway, gun goes off prematurely or can't get the safety off, your dead. For me, no safety and first click, hammer off the pin.
 
#17 ·
This really is terrible. Training with one's firearm is the most important factor in the ability to manipulate it under duress. And while formal military or law enforcement certainly qualifies as in-depth training, I can assure you that there are many other forms of training that allow one to become adept at understanding and operating quickly.

My question relates to concern about the thumb safety being accidentally disengaged. JMB had the brilliance to place a second safety on the 1911 which makes it safer than many other carry pistols (even though they have a heavier trigger). But I was just curious if anyone has ever had any issues with accidental disengagement.
 
#8 ·
I've been carrying 1911s for years.......everyday usually from September thru early summer. I'm left-handed & have ambi safeties on all of them.

I also carry with the hammer cocked & safety on. Every now & then the safety on the left side gets knocked off, no big deal. The function of a good 1911 will ensure that it won't go off unintentionally.

If you're not comfortable with cocked & locked on a 1911, then carry something else. If you ever need your firearm, you shouldn't depend on having enough time to thumb the hammer back or rack the slide. You may not have the extra hand to work the slide.....When you need it fractions of a second could make the difference of going home or not.

The progression I have seen over the years with handgun carriers (especially with older shooters) is this:

1st gun is usually a revolver or now a days something in semi auto like a Glock with a heavy trigger.
2nd gun semi auto that is a little more complex, like maybe a Sig 228, 229

3rd gun usually a 1911, the 1911 may not be for novices, but with some or a lot of training.....NOTHING BEATS the trigger on a 1911.

YMMV
 
#21 ·
...I'm glad your way got you through...thanks for your service...but that doesn't change the way the weapon was designed, manufactured, and the way the instructions were written...it's a human thing to want everyone to do things the way we do, but it doesn't carry the force of authority, or of thousands of lifetimes of carrying it the intended way...
 
#12 ·
Boasting about being "in combat" is not relevant to a concealed carry scenario, nor does it lend credibility to poor advice. A prerequisite for carrying should not be one's history of whether or not they carried an OWB pistol in a situation knowing full well they were already in a life or death environment. I am happy you made it through combat but that is not healthy advice for anyone carrying a 1911. If it works for you, awesome, it is still not the safest or intended way to carry a 1911.
 
#14 ·
I was offering my opinion not boasting, I don't boast about my experience, was just trying to help the guy out. for show means show of force, at times is used hoping not to have to use deadly force, drawing your gun with a warning as opposed to drawing and firing. There is nothing "dangerous" about a chambered round with the hammer on first cock, can not be hit to fire, trigger will not release it. For me, this is the best way to carry a 1911 frame gun. People in an actual combat situation are very nervous with a lot adrenalin flowing. Drawing a 1911, releasing the safety and firing and hitting the target,(a person not a piece of paper) is not easy in a short amount of time. A customized 1911 can have a 2.5lb pull with 1.5mm travel to stop and fire. A harder pull, 4-5lb and 5mm or more travel lessens the accuracy added to the action of releasing the safety verses just cocking and firing (to me) can be disastrous. You know guys, interesting opinions here, interesting
 
#18 ·
Apologies OP as I know none of this helps with your question. I think the concern about carrying a 1911 as you state, Hydro, is that it requires you to pull the trigger with all safeties deactivated and lower the hammer with your thumb. You may feel comfortable doing this, but even you have to admit that you're one wrong twitch or slick thumb from an ND.

Also, combat experience is useful in a gunfight, but it is absolutely not helpful in safe weapon handling. I've seen guys who have been in countless gunfights, far more experienced than me in hairy situations, do very dumb things in training and around the base, to include situations where a shot was unintentionally fired. You avoid accidents by building good habits and not doing dumb things. If anything combat vets (like us) tend to be cavalier and do more dumb things, like manually lowering a hammer over a live round.
 
#15 ·
I always test any new holster / gun combination before carrying cocked and locked by making sure the there is not a round chamber and carrying cocked and locked on an empty chamber until I am confident that everything is staying the way I want it. While doing this I carry another gun as a primary.
 
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#22 ·
I have carried both a 1911 and a Browning Hi power with both cocked and locked for 20+ years, never had an issue.

The ONLY time I ever had an AD (accidental discharge) was during one of my early matches and I had a vertical holster for my AMT Hardballer longslide. You had to drop the hammer on a loaded chamber to holster, in order to be ready to start your round. Surprising when your thumb slips and it goes bang. Luckily I was pointed downrange when it happened.

Needless to say I got rid of the holster and started to carry in a safer fashion.
 
#23 ·
Your trigger is covered - which is the main thing. If it were me, and I was going to carry in that position with a 1911 - I would want a holster that was well boned to the gun with the safety on to help it stay in position.

I wouldn't carry in that position though. And how would you find a left handed holster with reverse cant to use?

Austin
 
#24 ·
From my Colt 1911 Safety and Instruction Manual. Copyright 1996.

Page 17: "Safety Stop on Hammer.... (Printed in the book in Italics for emphasis) The Safety Stop is not a manual safety and should not be engaged by hand."

Page 19: (Large Triangle in bold with an Exclamation Point in it. Larger print size ALL CAPS and Bolded) "DO NOT CARRY YOUR PISTOL WITH THE HAMMER DOWN ON A LIVE CARTRIDGE. To do so means you must lower the hammer. To lower the hammer you must squeeze the trigger. When you squeeze the trigger you dissengage the firing pin block. This is not a safe condition"

Page 26: "CARRYING MODES NOTE: The pistol may be carried in any one of the following three modes according to your needs.
Mode 1: MAGAZINE EMPTY, CHAMBER EMPTY.
Mode 2: MAGAZINE LOADED, CHAMBER EMPTY.
Mode 3: MAGAZINE LOADED, CHAMBER LOADED, HAMMER COCKED, SAFETY ON." (note on Mode 3) "Use Mode 3 when you MUST BE PREPARED to use the pistol IMMEDIATELY without warning."

These are quoted directly from Colt. I used caps where they did. I used "notes" where they did.

Any questions?
 
#27 ·
Some good comments and advice by most here, but not all. If carrying a 1911, it should be cocked and locked. I strongly recommend ambi safeties on all firearms equipped with safeties in case your primary hand/arm are injured or otherwise incapacitated. Also, carrying in a left hand holster for right hand draw from 5:30 needs serious reconsideration.

just sayin'

sent from my rotary dial phone using tapatalk2
 
#28 ·
I would think if your going to carry a 1911 you had better practice with it till its second nature, that being said the only way to carry it is cocked an locked if your not comfortable with that try a different weapon. I like the sp101 as a primary an never feel under gunned.
 
#29 ·
To the OP ...

I have owned several 1911 pistols since the early '70's. I was issued 3 different 1911's in the military. I was instructed to always carry condition 1 by the military and also by private instruction. In almost 40 years, I have never had a problem or a malfunction that wasnt human error. The pistol has always performed as designed. My concern with your post is that you carry at 5:30. To me, it's already an awkward position to carry any weapon for personal defense. As you draw, you most likely pass your aiming point by virtue of the gun's holstered position and then you will need to bring it back on target. This is wasted time for personal defense. Carrying a defense weapon at 3 o'clock or 3:30 is a much more natural position for immediately aquiring your target. Most people already have muscle memory with their hand from a side position to a finger point forward. In essence, this is the same action required for drawing a handgun from the 3 o'clock(ish) position.

I'm not here to tell you that your way is right or wrong, just not as time effective and efficient as it could be. IMHO YMMV
 
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#35 ·
There have been several replies urging me to reconsider my carry placement, so I am doing so.

Let me clarify some. Look at the attached image (not me, stolen from Google). I like to carry slightly more towards my back, but with the gun placed with the butt facing towards my right. For my 1911, I'd likely have a custom holster made with a backwards cant so that the draw would be smooth.

I have trouble carrying at 3:00 the way that many people do. I don't have a build that allows for much concealment there.

Belt Arm Jeans Leg Hip
 
#30 ·
I am going to re post what I said in the other thread a day or so ago on the same subject:

I carry a 1911 type pistol 80% of the time, and always condition one, cocked and locked.

There are several safety features in place on these pistols to prevent a negligent discharge from rough handling or a high G force impact (dropping it).

There is the grip safety which prevents the trigger from moving if the gun is not held firmly. There is the thumb safety which prevents the sear from moving when engaged even if the grip safety is disengaged and the trigger pulled.

There is the half cock notch on the hammer, so even if the thumb safety was not engaged (and even if the grip safety were taped down to disable it) and you threw the gun in the air and hit it hard enough with a baseball bat to where the sear moved enough to drop the hammer, the half cock notch would capture the sear and prevent the hammer from dropping all the way.

On a properly set up series 70 type pistol, with no firing pin block, The firing pin should be light enough and the spring strong enough to keep the pin from striking the primer if dropped on concrete muzzle down.

On a series 80 type gun with a firing pin safety, the trigger must be pulled (meaning the grip safety is de-activated and the thumb safety is de-activated) in order for the firing pin block to be moved out of the way for the firing pin to be able to move at all.

So yea, while it seems scary at first to see a 1911 in a holster with the hammer back, there is over a century of thought and engineering keeping that hammer back until you pull the gun from the holster, grip if firmly, swipe the thumb safety off, and pull the trigger.

I will say, for me personally I wasn't totally comfortable with it till I figured out the function of the half cock notch. Been carrying em for going on 20 years now though.
 
#31 ·
Question......
I keep seeing people post that Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. I've also read that this isn't true and the cocked method of carry was started by calvary in the field because it proved to be safer. Does anyone know the true history?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
 
#44 · (Edited)
John Browning did not set down and intentionally design the pistol from the very beginning to be carried cocked and locked. The 1911 was originally designed as a military pistol to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber (that's why they had those long wide hammers originally). The original design had no thumb safety at all, the US Calvary requested a safety of some sort be incorporated into the weapon system so that our mounted troopers would not have to let go of the reins to place the M1910 (M1911 w/the safety) into a safe condition, Browning and Colt designers came up with the thumb safety. The C&L option was intended to be used only until the trooper was dismounted and could safely place the weapon in Condition 3 carry as called for by the military. With the addition of the thumb safety, cocked and locked became the correct way to carry the 1911 for immediate use.

You can see the absence of a thumb safety on JMB's personal weapon.

 
#36 ·
This is true. His original design for what is now the 1911 did not have the grip safety back in 1910.

The US Calvary requested the redesign to include the grip safety because while mounted on horseback, during combat, they believed there was a possibility for negligent discharges if the trooper did not have a solid grip on the gun while being jostled around on horseback. Browning added the grip safety for that reason, but felt it was unneeded.

In 1922 FN produced the John Browning designed .32 acp pistol, also without a grip safety. Browning also designed the .32 acp cartridge to go with it.

His next great pistol design the P35, produced in 1935 and affectionately known as the Browning Hi-Power is also without a grip safety.
 
#33 ·
I have seen this post ad nauseum in most forums. Hydro states he would rather thumb the hammer back in a stress situation. I think this is flirting with disaster. If it works for him great. But he is surely in the minority. Best advise I read here was to carry the gun cocked and locked for a few days with an empty chamber until you are confident that your gun functions as designed. Just practice swiping the safety and racking a round. Just in case
 
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