Expand LEOSA to active duty/retired military?

This is a discussion on Expand LEOSA to active duty/retired military? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; SunZu, in all honesty, I have to admit, that as a Plt Sgt, I, and my upper command quite frequently bought beer for our Marines ...

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Thread: Expand LEOSA to active duty/retired military?

  1. #91
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    SunZu, in all honesty, I have to admit, that as a Plt Sgt, I, and my upper command quite frequently bought beer for our Marines ( as well as food to grill) as a reward or appreciation for a job well done. And it was common for a Marine to be served on base. This was 86-93.

    I remember when I was a " Geiger Tiger" out of boot camp, I went to the E club and was served despite being only 19. I was told by the bar keep if I was old enough to fight and die, I was old enough to have a beer.

    At off base establishments like Tobys, the Thunder Bird, AJ's, and the Tar Hill Opry House, it wasn't good for business to turn Marines and Sailors away. It was the original " don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    And I am absolutely in favor of national carry for all citizens. The FOP and other LE organizations fought long and hard for LEOSA. And, it actually opens the door for all people.

    This isn't really a " us v them" issue, but people are making it out that way. And it's a shame. LEO across the nation have helped support and defend and promote citizens rights to carry, and truthfully, without the voice of the rank and file officer to off set the political Police Chiefs organizations, I don't think you would have had the success in the victories that have been enjoyed.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    You are correct..it is not us vs them...(well, some poster here seems to think you guys are more special and in need LOL). Get some sleep. I saw in your other thread you had a busy but good night.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    You are correct..it is not us vs them...(well, some poster here seems to think you guys are more special and in need LOL). Get some sleep. I saw in your other thread you had a busy but good night.
    Wish I could. But I'm back on the job today until 5 ish.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #94
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Sorry, you are not a specail group of people in so far as needing protection. A wife that is in fear of her hubby and had a restrainning order is in as much fear and in fact a direct fear for her life than the off chance in retirement a LEO is going to run into a guy wanting to do him in. You can extend your logic to anyone who has a personal enemy, to the jurors on trials, the witness's the judges and the lawyers.

    Also: what is more likely to happen: A person is on a vacation (LEO). What are the odds he will be attacked by a person he has known in the past or by a random violent crime? I would say a random violent crime which can happen to anyone. How many officers have had to use their weapon to thwart off a felon that they ran into in another state which they do not live? Now, compare that to people visiting other states that have been attacked and could not defend themselves because they could not bring their weapon to that state. Betcha the latter number is higher. I like numbers, not anecdotal stories.
    I think you're missing the point, or just wanting to beat that dead horse, as some are want to do. I'm not saying and haven't said that a "wife fearful of her hubby" shouldn't be able to protect herself. She may protect herself, just as you can, but she can't do it using LEOSA unless she's earned that right.

    You don't have to agree with the LEOSA law but enough of our elected officials did agree with it, to make it law. It is what it is.
    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  6. #95
    New Member Array rcpolynikes's Avatar
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    Friends,
    I created a very important petition on the White House website that will help reduce gun violence at NO ADDITIONAL TAX PAYER EXPENSE!!! "MILITARY SERVICE MEMBER'S SAFETY ACT"Please review,sign and forward on to all others if you agree with it. I need 100,000 signatures by March 3rd for the White House to respond. Thank you for your support.

    http://wh.gov/pi8f

    Sincerely,
    RC

  7. #96
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    There are three of us signed up as of just a second ago. Applaud your effort sir.
    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I appluad his effort but I am not signing a petition that sets apart our population in priveleged classes. The petition should be for all folks to be able to carry everywhere.

    Sorry.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  9. #98
    New Member Array rcpolynikes's Avatar
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    Again... suntzu I understand what you are saying....and completely agree that it should be everyone's right. However, we all know that has even less chance of getting passed than this. This is a start in the right direction though. Appreciate your concerns.

  10. #99
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    I haven't read this entire thread .... but I have much of it. Prior to LEOSA a police officer traveling out of state (on or off duty) or maybe a retired officer who was authorized to carry lost the authorization at his state line. A police officer's training with weapons is not limited to proficiency. There are many hours of training devoted to laws and when one can or should shoot versus not shoot. Those rules, laws, change over time. When I started it was lawful to shoot a fleeing felon. We were cautioned ad nauseum to not shoot non violent fleeing felons, but if a felon was known to us and was fleeing and if his/her escape was likely to endanger innocents, they were fair game. That has changed somewhat, I just use it as an example .... nothing more. Police officers in different states do serve under some different laws but the basics don't change that much, much of the training in use of force is pretty much the same. Civilian law enforcement is not the same as that which most military firearms training is aimed at.

    So what you had prior to the LEOSA was a lot of traveling or retired LEOs who either carried something nearby they could afford to loose or they didn't carry. If they didn't carry and came along as a trooper was engaged in a struggle roadside at 2am in another state .... what to do?? I recall a trooper in another state once being forced into her trunk at gunpoint when a bus driver stopped his bus and came across a median strip pistol in hand and saved said trooper. I know of a trooper in Wyoming who was in a life or death struggle when a truck driver stopped and distracted the attacker with his S&W .... that attacker later attacked a trooper further south and that trooper was able to shoot him. When I traveled out of state prior to LEOSA, I had to make a decision .... carry in violation or not carry and be lawful but helpless to assist if I should see an officer in need?

    It's not that I am arguing against citizens carrying, I live in a open carry state and often encourage people to consider CCW or open carry under some circumstances. But I do not wish to see others attempt to use LEOSA as a vehicle to CC nationwide.
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  11. #100
    New Member Array Mcampbell03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    "The Military" is a rather large scope and Military use of force laws are nearly inapplicable to armed self defense not in relation to Military duties, and the handgun training regarding "the military" as a whole is severly lacking then again a lot of LE handgun training is not much better.

    This is the same Military that doesn't trust its soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen to carry on thier own posts.

    Many of the people I've found to be in the most need of training in use of force law have been prior Military.

    I mean come on, the Military ROE typically calls for warning shots which has Landed some prior service types in some deep doodoo in the world outside of Military postings.

    Now, if the Military were to come up with a specific course to address these issues, and have a pistol course similar to what the Corps was using in the High Risk Personnel Course, then I would feel better about the idea, but as it stands right now there are few Billets, ratings, MOS' etc that I could see with justification to be part of LEOSA. NCIS (the real thing not the Crap you see on TV) and like personnel? Sure. But the Military as a whole? No way, not without more specilized training.

    Sent via Tapatalk 2, and still using real words.
    I am responding to your post to educate you on Air Force Security Forces. For one we carry 9mm berrata as our duty weapon when riding on patrols. With a round in the chamber and safety selector on fire, we train on carrying our weapon in that configuration. Also most Air Force bases have concurrent jurisdiction. Which means we enforce civilian laws as well as military laws. For example when I pull over a civilian on base I actually write them a ticket that they have to go to court for and receive points on their license. Or when we deal with people who commit crimes on the base we arrest them charge them and we are the ones who go to court for their trials. I can't speak for any other branches but Air Force we do the same thing that civilian cops do. We train for active shooters all the time and have shoot no shoot scenrios taught to us from our Academy. Matter of fact the Security Forces Academy is FLETA accredited and certified. Please know what your information before you down play us.

  12. #101
    New Member Array Mcampbell03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    I also disagree that LEOSA should extend to active or retired military. Most enlisted in the military spend most of their time unarmed and almost none are trained in civilian world concealed carry situations. Also, I think it would extend this to way too many people that really have no need for it.
    Air Force Security forces carries 9mm beretta with one in the chamber safety selector on fire as our primary weapon when on duty as LE. I can't speak on other branches so you shouldn't assume either now your facts, we also have concurrent jurisdiction which means we enforce civilian laws as well as military laws. When we stop a civilian for speeding on base we write a ticket to them that they get fined and points on their license. When ppl commit crimes we arrest them charge them and go to court when they are being prosecuted

  13. #102
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcampbell03 View Post
    I am responding to your post to educate you on Air Force Security Forces. For one we carry 9mm berrata as our duty weapon when riding on patrols. With a round in the chamber and safety selector on fire, we train on carrying our weapon in that configuration. Also most Air Force bases have concurrent jurisdiction. Which means we enforce civilian laws as well as military laws. For example when I pull over a civilian on base I actually write them a ticket that they have to go to court for and receive points on their license. Or when we deal with people who commit crimes on the base we arrest them charge them and we are the ones who go to court for their trials. I can't speak for any other branches but Air Force we do the same thing that civilian cops do. We train for active shooters all the time and have shoot no shoot scenrios taught to us from our Academy. Matter of fact the Security Forces Academy is FLETA accredited and certified. Please know what your information before you down play us.
    Did you read the entire post JD did?
    but as it stands right now there are few Billets, ratings, MOS' etc that I could see with justification to be part of LEOSA. NCIS (the real thing not the Crap you see on TV) and like personnel? Sure.
    He was talkig about the military as a whole and I agree with him. Most of the military has no special training that a civilian does not have in respect to CC. He was not dissing AF Security Forces.

    BTW: I thought if you got a ticket on a military installation you did not get points...I have had two speeding tickets and it was never reported.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  14. #103
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    I'm retired LEO with 30 years. I did not go with the LEOSA due to overall cost. I just got myself a NC CHL and good enough. The LEOSA person has to quailfy each year, usually has to pay instructor, ammo cost, time to do it. The NCCHL only does a CH check and less money paid out during its four year period. It adds up over the years if u think abt it all combined. Others may think different.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."*
    -Thomas Jefferson
    "The Constitution shall never be construed ... to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."**
    -Samuel Adams

  15. #104
    New Member Array Mcampbell03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    To clarify: when you go to qualify they don't trust you with your ammo and your gun. Normally you put the gun down and go back and get your ammo or have your coach go get it. The amount of range rules is too the point where it is next to impossible to have an accident. In fact, they take away any responsibility from the individual and place it on the range cadre for safety.

    The point is they take away the personal responisbility for safety. As a gun owner you do not have reange cadre walking around with you to ensure you do not screw up. The rules have been like that forever because of the vast amount of folks that go into the military you wuld have plenty of AD's if it were not so structured. The rationale that military is trained on safety is correct, but the emphasis is on group safety...not individual.

    I have seen ex military at the range and in abscence of an RSO they are just like the rest of the population...you have some knuckleheads while the vast majority or just fine.

    You have to admit it is hard to have an ND if you do not have your ammo and gun at the same time except when you are about ready to fire. It real life as a CC'er you are responsible for a loaded and chambered gun while you are out in the public. That is a far cry from having an RSO walking behind you.
    I would really like to know what military police you have seen because I am Security Forces in the Air Force and we have our ammo on us during qualification. Matter of fact part of our quals is to shoot until you are out reload on the spot and keep firing. You fail if you can't accomplish that. We also have to shoot weak hand out shooter cadre don't touch our ammo all they do is score out targets and give pointers

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcampbell03 View Post
    I would really like to know what military police you have seen because I am Security Forces in the Air Force and we have our ammo on us during qualification. Matter of fact part of our quals is to shoot until you are out reload on the spot and keep firing. You fail if you can't accomplish that. We also have to shoot weak hand out shooter cadre don't touch our ammo all they do is score out targets and give pointers
    Will you get off of the AF security kick. This is the second post where you think that is the only part of the service we are talking about. If you slow down and read the post you will notice I am talking about the military in general, not any specific branch or part of the branch.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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