Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states - Page 11

Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

This is a discussion on Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CowboyKen Almost 150 responses and not one that attempts to actually address the OP above with "stats, hard evidence, that mandatory training ...

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Thread: Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyKen View Post
    Almost 150 responses and not one that attempts to actually address the OP above with "stats, hard evidence, that mandatory training states are better than non mandatory training states ... ." Way to go!

    Ken
    That's because they don't exist. That they don't exist doesn't make the OP's premise valid.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson


  2. #152
    Member Array Ogre's Avatar
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    Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

    Thanks 9Mmare, I think.

    I do have a point to make, regarding the 2A. Everyone quotes the last part, and ignores the first "A well REGULATED militia". Now if we can agree that militia in this case means, and the courts have agreed, all citizens (18 years old and up), then WHO regulates them? All mandatory SAFETY training would fall under such language.


    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

  3. #153
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Well after a nights rest "I still wish I had some valium or something" Im back maybe clearer headed.
    Ky you must shoot a target that a monkey could hit blindfolded and break down what weapon you bring plus some class room to get CC permit. Its not horrible its rather easy though for some of us it was a tad expensive which is why I think they put the cc permit in in the first place. Instead of just making it law you could cc, they needed fees out of it for the state. Follow the monney. But Ky is a good state cc wise and oc wise. One of the best ones.
    That said and perhaps im making a point that others see as impossible I just dont happen too based on history and a lot of other things.
    Mandatory training is yet another infringement on top of the other infringements. Hopefully we at least here agree that though this stuff is legislated it shouldnt be???? That most if not all the regs imposed are unconstitutional even though some courts say they arent depening on what flavor of judge happens to be looking at the issue. Do they happen? Obviously. Doesnt make it right.
    My point is this. Hopefully more clearly this time. Mandatory training wont accomplish anything. It only leaves another layer of regs to go through for a person to do what they should be able to do with no regs at all.
    Life is not perfect and we cannot legislate it to be so. Accidents happen regularly with highly trained LE and Military with firearms. They will happen regardless. Thats life. Thinking legislating will change that is a dangerous path to go down.
    My right to carry ends when I stick a gun in someones face and commit a crime with it.

    Debating here on what courts have done or will do is sort of useless. I would venture that though some here think they know what all that legalize means they probably dont

    I still think if Glockman10mm has opportunity to pull me over Im in deep doo doo. LOL
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  4. #154
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ole slabside View Post
    No, you sound like a liberal...

    You should of said, your rights end, when they are ones I don't agree with...

    Aint the first amendment a beautiful thing... you can say stupid stuff in public too...
    But he DIDNT say that.

    You put words in his mouth.

    Yeah...it's easy to look stupid, since the 1A doesnt protect you from that.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #155
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    A snippet from the PFOA, a Pennsylvania Forum
    A ton of training didnt stop the cop here who left his gun available for his son to shoot his daughter with, now did it?

    It's not just about 'training.'

    It's about whether or not the govt should FORCE training on people...and we're trying to learn if that will make a difference.'

    So far...no evidence it will do so.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #156
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Heres another example of incompetant people who are killing us

    The accidental firing of a handgun in the Lake City Walmart Friday night led to the arrest of the gun's owner, Lake City Police Capt. John Blanchard IV reported.

    L.J. Johnson, 59, of 237 Campus Place, was charged with culpable negligence and improper exhibition of a firearm for the incident that happened about 10:28 p.m. at the store on U.S. 90.


    Blanchard said Johnson had a concealed weapon and holster that fell to the floor from its place of concealment, causing the gun to fire.

    The immediate and surrounding areas were searched for evidence of where the bullet had traveled. No one was injured.

    Johnson was jailed with bond set at $2,000, Blanchard reported.
    We may agree he was incompetant or careless...but are you assuming he had no training?

    Since we dont know, I dont know what point you could be making here.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #157
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    We may agree he was incompetant or careless...but are you assuming he had no training?

    Since we dont know, I dont know what point you could be making here.
    I did not say he, specifically had no training. But what I am advocating is more educational than training. I believe there's a difference, but once again, it's open to what one defines the two as.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #158
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Maybe easily "fixable" but at this point they are what they are , in some areas it's near impossible for someone making even a decent wage to survive and have the "extra" fees (including annual renewals) . What I figure is that it is only a matter of time before some smart legal minds realize the simple way to defeat things as they are is to argue the financial "gap" and how this makes it much more difficult on low income and minorities . The reality also is that there is much truth to this, just because the upper middle class (and above) can manage to do so, can be valid evidence that "certain groups" are intentionally excluded via fees and costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Both part I put in bold are valid concerns. Both are readily fixable. General revenue can
    certainly be used to fund the issuing authority so that the price to the applicant gets dropped
    to little more than the cost of postage and copying. Training --range test excluded of course--
    can be readily accomplished in today's world via computer. The poor can gain access to computers
    at libraries, at friend's homes, at schools perhaps. With the price of tablets tumbling, and
    the cost of WiFi at McD's about the same as Big Mac.

    I see that they have installed iPads in JC Penny Stores for customer use. I don't know what they
    block, but who knows, maybe you could do your on-line training there while your wife rummages
    around the various shelves.

    There is another self-taught option which could happen. The CHL handbook really needs to be
    put into plain English, not the flat out recitation of law and regulation which it presently is.
    An enterprising person or a pro-gun organization could create a training book and distribute
    it for little cost in a Kindle style version or as a .pdf.

    The impediments to training other than the range exam are fixable.
    The range exam is too important to omit IMO, and serves a valuable safety function. I don't think
    any court will find that particular requirement unconstitutional. It really is a matter of attempting
    to assure some public safety. You are after all responsible for where every bullet lands. If you
    can't hit the paper at 7 yards you shouldn't have a license.

  9. #159
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    It has long been known that in the context/usage here "REGULATED" means EQUIPPED/Outfitted .....SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is pretty clear as well ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
    Thanks 9Mmare, I think.

    I do have a point to make, regarding the 2A. Everyone quotes the last part, and ignores the first "A well REGULATED militia". Now if we can agree that militia in this case means, and the courts have agreed, all citizens (18 years old and up), then WHO regulates them? All mandatory SAFETY training would fall under such language.


    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

  10. #160
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Another point that could matter is even where open carry is 100% legal (as in Ky.) should a female really not be allowed to have a weapon in her purse(etc.) in the case where an EPO is not being exactly followed? (that is but one example) right now the waiting list is about 60 days in my area to get into a ccw class and then another 90 days or so to get the ccw permit itself. While under some circumstances that is fine, however in others it doesn't seem to me to abide by the 2nd at all. The Right to self defense (even with deadly force ) should not be dependent on time and/or $ IMO

    Open carry reveals to the would be attacker he/she is armed, not seeing a weapon means odds are they're an easy target, much more so in the above example
    Ghost1958 likes this.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceoky View Post
    It has long been known that in the context/usage here "REGULATED" means EQUIPPED/Outfitted .....SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is pretty clear as well ;)
    Don't think so. Take a look at this link: Regulated Synonyms, Regulated Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #162
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    A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

    The second part is clearly because of the first part? To put it another way, WHY would the Right of the people to keep and bear arms be "necessary" to the security of ? IF it doesn't mean that? Because it clearly does in this case. Regulated in this context IS talking about being armed "the people" means US......as SCOUTS confirmed

    You can't "focus" on "regulated" and not see "security of a free state" nor ignore the arms part- they're intertwined in this usage.

    "Regulated" as some are trying to use it here and "Shall NOT be infringed" go against each other... and make zero sense in any other context thus cannot be as some are claiming

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    A ton of training didnt stop the cop here who left his gun available for his son to shoot his daughter with, now did it?

    It's not just about 'training.'

    It's about whether or not the govt should FORCE training on people...and we're trying to learn if that will make a difference.'

    So far...no evidence it will do so.
    I agree. Even with training someone can become do stupid or careless things.

    But if we as a society in general place high value on education for the advancement of everything that is worth doing, doesn't it stand to reason that proper firearms education would be an asset to all of us concerned here?

    And I believe it could be done without an undue financial hardship placed on the individual. That is just a matter of a thought put into it. I'm not talking about tactical training here.

    Since there are already states with training requirements such as here in Ky, my thoughts are to revamp the current curriculum to meet the goal of covering the in and outs of carrying in public.

    We have been so programmed to be suspicious of Goverment, and rightfully so, that we cannot be proactive for our own good.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #164
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyKen View Post
    I thought that the Great State of Texas "required training" before issuing a "concealed handgun license," apparently it didn't help.

    Thank you for making the point of the OP regarding the idea that mandated training before issuance of a ccw does NOT enhance public safety.

    Ken
    The problem with your opinion here is that there is no winner or loser in this thread. Suntzu started a thread that has been thought provoking, and in the spirit of forum, a place to exchange ideas, thoughts and opinions on an issue that could be beneficial.

    But rather than participate, you have set on the sidelines like a cheerleader and occasionally stepping in with a me too, or oh yeah, we win attitude.
    But other than that, you are a non event.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  15. #165
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    I think glockman10mm is spot on. This is one area of the debate that I believe needs help. When it comes to high velocity projectiles I'll rely on common sense over statistics any day.

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