Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states - Page 15

Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

This is a discussion on Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was then required to take a driving safety class. IN KY? When and where was this? Driving is not a Constitutional RIGHT either also ...

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Thread: Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

  1. #211
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    I was then required to take a driving safety class.
    IN KY? When and where was this?

    Driving is not a Constitutional RIGHT either also what costs were associated with the driving test and what does it cost total to get a CCW in KY?

    Like I said training IS a good idea, REQUIRING it even at the risk of the lady who has an EPO (or whatever ) who becomes a victim while waiting for the requirements is not acceptable. (IMO) I believe many of us men figure we can "handle things" most times even IF we can't be armed at all times, even IF that were true, you have to remember there are folks who are not young strong men, who may have had open heart surgery ,(or whatever) or any number of other things making waiting literally risking their lives. I happen to believe there has to be a MUCH better way and system.

    I sure wouldn't want to be the one advocating no changes and find out Mr. /Mrs. "X" got killed because they couldn't legally carry and were therefor no longer around- to me that infringes on and totally negates a RIGHT to "keep and bear arms" in every possible sense


  2. #212
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceoky View Post
    IN KY? When and where was this?

    Driving is not a Constitutional RIGHT either also what costs were associated with the driving test and what does it cost total to get a CCW in KY?

    Like I said training IS a good idea, REQUIRING it even at the risk of the lady who has an EPO (or whatever ) who becomes a victim while waiting for the requirements is not acceptable. (IMO) I believe many of us men figure we can "handle things" most times even IF we can't be armed at all times, even IF that were true, you have to remember there are folks who are not young strong men, who may have had open heart surgery ,(or whatever) or any number of other things making waiting literally risking their lives. I happen to believe there has to be a MUCH better way and system.

    I sure wouldn't want to be the one advocating no changes and find out Mr. /Mrs. "X" got killed because they couldn't legally carry and were therefor no longer around- to me that infringes on and totally negates a RIGHT to "keep and bear arms" in every possible sense
    The training class I had to take, if I remember correctly, was between the time I got my permit and the time I got my license. It was a four hour, mandatory classroom class at the high school one night around 6 pm. I don't remember if I had to pay for it. I'm 28 now and it was when I was 16, so about 12 years ago. Things have changed drastically now with the graduated licensing program, but this is what the transportation cabinet says about the current process:

    "Drivers who receive a permit before 18 years of age must complete one of the following New Driver Education Programs before being eligible to apply for a full unrestricted license:
    Graduated License Course (Free 4 hour course provided by the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet in the drivers home county)
    High School Drivers Education Course or a similar course offered by a Kentucky Community College, Vocational School or Job Corps.
    Private Driver Training course at a Division of Driver License approved driver training school."

    And I would argue that driving is a Constitutional right under the 9th Amendment, just as eating pizza, lifting weights, smoking cigarettes, and having sex are all rights under the 9th Amendment.

  3. #213
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    38Special...did you compare the statistics of states with mandatory hunting training against those without mandatory training to see if there was a difference in accidents? We all know training is good. What we dont know is if it makes a difference in actual accidents and public safety...because there seems to be an assumption that if not FORCED, most people will not get trained. (I disagree with this premise)

    As for all the tests you took for driving....aside from the important point that driving is a privilege not a right......were you FORCED to take outside training?

    For more perspective, people USE their cars every day...cc'ers do not use their firearms everyday...they may never use them in 'real life.'

    So again.....what is the justification for forcing training on people if there is no data indicating it makes a difference? (And please see bold above for a reminder)
    I don't need to compare the statistics...Louisiana stated that hunting accidents were reduced once mandatory training was implemented. I have no reason to question their stats and I have no reason to believe the results would be any different in other states.

    Driving is not a privilege. It is a right granted by the 9th Amendment. The state cannot refuse to issue me a license if I pass all required licensing processes. And I was forced to take outside training or I would not have been issued my license.

    Yes, people use their cars everyday. Firearm carriers may also carry their guns everyday. The potential for use always exists. I carry a firearm on duty everyday at work...I don't use it everyday, but I am still required to train and qualify with it.

    I think there is data indicating training makes a difference. It makes a difference in hunting and driving and it makes a difference in military and police applications.

  4. #214
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    If anyone is interested, this is the drivers licensing process for the stateof KY:


    GDL Steps to Obtaining a License

    ​Step 1 - Permit Phase

    You must be 16 years of age to take the written knowledge test and a vision test (Driving Manuals can be obtained online if you click here).
    You will need your social security card, an original or certified birth certificate and proof of residence. Acceptable documents for proof of Kentucky residence, are a utility bill or agreement, mortgage documents, postmarked letter with driver's name and current address, deed or property tax bill, or a rental housing agreement. A PO Box is not acceptable; it must be the physical address.
    For persons under 18, a parent or guardian must sign the application, taking financial responsibility for the applicant. A legal guardian must have a certified copy of guardianship papers.​
    If under age 18, must present a School Compliance Verification Form issued by their school. (No Pass / No Drive Law -KRS 159.051 effective 8/1/2007)

    ​If You Pass the Permit test:

    ​​An “Under 21” distinctive permit will be issued.
    Applicants under the age of 21 must hold the driving permit for a minimum of 180 days. Applicants over the age of 21 must hold the driving permit for a minimum of 30 days.
    You may drive only when accompanied in the front passenger seat by a licensed driver who is age 21 or older.
    Permit drivers under the age of 18 must complete a minimum of 60 hours of practice driving, 10 of which must occur at night. (Practice Driving Log and Verification Form).​
    Permit holders under the age of 18 are not allowed to drive between the hours of 12 midnight and 6:00 am, unless the driver can demonstrate a good cause for driving such as emergencies, school or work related activities.
    Permit holders under the age of 18 receiving a moving traffic violation conviction under KRS 186, 189, 189A. will have to restart the 180 Permit License waiting period.
    Permit holders under 18 shall not operate a motor vehicle at any time with more than 1 unrelated person under 20 years of age in the vehicle.
    Driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs is prohibited. All drivers under the age of 21 are subject to “Zero Alcohol Tolerance” (Defined as .02 Blood Alcohol Concentration).
    Drivers who receive a permit before 18 years of age must complete one of the following New Driver Education Programs before being eligible to apply for a full unrestricted license:
    Graduated License Course (Free 4 hour course provided by the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet in the drivers home county)
    High School Drivers Education Course or a similar course offered by a Kentucky Community College, Vocational School or Job Corps.
    Private Driver Training course at a Division of Driver License approved driver training school.
    All drivers are subject to Kentucky’s point system. A driver under the age of 18 who accumulates more than 6 points, or a driver age 18 and over who accumulates 12 points may have their driving privilege suspended.
    No serious moving violations for those under the age of 18.
    Buckle Up, it’s the Law! Everyone in the vehicle must wear a seatbelt at all times.
    If You Do Not Pass the Permit test:
    ​You may try again the next available testing day.
    Applicants can take the written test a total of six (6) times. If you fail the written test six (6) times, you must wait six (6) months before trying again.

    Step*2 -*Intermediate License Phase

    ​After holding the permit for 180 days you may apply for an Intermediate License and take the driving skills test.
    testing times and locations are available from the Circuit Clerk’s Office in your county of residence. An appointment may be necessary.
    The motor vehicle you use for testing must be properly registered and proof of liability insurance is required.
    The driver’s Parent/Guardian must certify the driver has completed 60 hours of practice driving, 10 of which must occur at night. Practice Driving Log and Verification Form.
    If You Pass the Skills test:*
    Permit holders under age 18, after successfully completing the road test the Kentucky State Police driving examiner will place an “Intermediate License” sticker on the drivers permit license.
    Permit holders 18 and older, after successfully completing the road test, will be eligible for the full unrestricted license provided the Driver Education Program has been completed.
    Intermediate license for a minimum of 180 days.
    Intermediate License holders are not allowed to drive between the hours of 12 midnight and 6 a.m. unless the driver can demonstrate a good cause for driving such as emergencies, school or work related activities).
    Intermediate License holders receiving a moving traffic conviction under KRS 186, 189, 189A. will have to restart the 180 Intermediate License waiting period.
    Intermediate License holders shall not operate a motor vehicle at any time with more than 1 unrelated person under 20 years of age in the vehicle.
    Intermediate license holders must complete one of the following New Driver Education Programs before moving to the full unrestricted licensing phase:
    Graduated Licensing Course (Free course provided by the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet in the drivers home county)
    High School Drivers Education Course.
    Private Driver Training course at a Division of Driver License approved driver training school.
    Driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs is prohibited. All drivers under the age of 21 are subject to “Zero Alcohol Tolerance” (Defined as .02 Blood Alcohol Concentration).
    A driver under the age of 18 who accumulates more than 6 points may have their driving privilege suspended.
    No serious moving violations for those under the age of 18.
    Buckle Up, it’s the Law! Everyone in the vehicle must wear a seatbelt at all times.
    If You Do Not Pass the Skills test:
    You must wait one week before taking the test again.
    If you fail the road test six (6) times, you must wait six (6) months before another test will be given. You will then have only two (2) attempts to pass the test.

    Step*3 -*Full Unrestricted License Phase

    Intermediate license holders under 18 years of age who have completed the new driver education program and held the intermediate license for 180 days may apply for a full unrestricted license.
    ​Permit or Intermediate license holders 18 or older who have completed the new driver education program and held the permit for 180 days may apply for a full unrestricted license.
    An “Under 21” distinctive license will be issued.
    Driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs is prohibited. All drivers under the age of 21 are subject to “Zero Alcohol Tolerance” (Defined as .02 Blood Alcohol Concentration).
    All drivers are subject to Kentucky’s point system. A driver under the age of 18 who accumulates more than 6 points, or a driver age 18 and over who accumulates 12 points may have their driving privilege suspended.
    Buckle Up, it’s the Law! Everyone in the vehicle must wear a seatbelt at all times.

  5. #215
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    I don't need to compare the statistics...Louisiana stated that hunting accidents were reduced once mandatory training was implemented. I have no reason to question their stats and I have no reason to believe the results would be any different in other states.

    Driving is not a privilege. It is a right granted by the 9th Amendment. The state cannot refuse to issue me a license if I pass all required licensing processes. And I was forced to take outside training or I would not have been issued my license.

    Yes, people use their cars everyday. Firearm carriers may also carry their guns everyday. The potential for use always exists. I carry a firearm on duty everyday at work...I don't use it everyday, but I am still required to train and qualify with it.

    I think there is data indicating training makes a difference. It makes a difference in hunting and driving and it makes a difference in military and police applications.
    From what you wrote, Lousiana only compared stats within the state..so that's fine to believe that but it's irrelevant when compared elsewhere. And hunting is a sport filled with active shooters and people with weapons out and ready. It's not the same as cc permit holders who 99% of the time have their firearms holstered.
    If you cant see that difference, I cant help you.

    Edit: since hunting is an active sport and different from cc...and there is data to support it...I have no objection to their mandatory hunting training requirement. See how that works?

    As for considering driving a 'right' under the Commerce Clause? OK...if that's your belief, fine. It's not mine but I'll be consistent: people use their cars everyday and cc permit holders keep their firearms holstered 99% of the time...so you cant compare data for usage that's not even close to parallel.

    (btw, no matter how classified (privilege or right) I completely object to mandatory driving training too...so if your state demands it, that's a shame. There are plenty of ways to learn to drive without some mandatory driving class....it should just be a matter of passing the licensing tests.)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #216
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I didnt read that whole KY drivers's licensing thing. But if training is mandatory, I still believe that's wrong...if you come in and can pass the required tests through whatever personal training or studying you did, that should be enough.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #217
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Ok heres one for you to ponder. I got a ccl which I had to take a one day classroom course watch a video take my weapon apart and shoot a target a blind mind could hit that cost me 75 bucks to take.
    Another 65 for the ccl. Always follow the money. At the time I could actually have cc legally anyway but knew I was going to quit soon so I took it anyway.
    Now on the other hand BEFORE I got the ccl I could open carry legally any darn place I wanted with no permit licence class or money spent to nest anyones pocket.

    Here it is still that way. So I suppose that since OC folks here arent gunning themselves down and others by accident or ignorance of the law having no class at all, and neither are ccl holders that had the class we can maybe take an educated quess that it makes not one whit of difference either way??? HUMMMMMMM.

    CC carry open carry when to shoot or not shoot isnt rocket science as much as we seem to over complicate things.
    If a person feels their life is in danger likely they will use a gun to defend it if they have one.
    If a person is of the personality to try to play Batman, or use a gun in anger because someone ran over their mail box they will. You cant give a class that changes someones personality or basic nature.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  8. #218
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    38Special...did you compare the statistics of states with mandatory hunting training against those without mandatory training to see if there was a difference in accidents? We all know training is good. What we dont know is if it makes a difference in actual accidents and public safety...because there seems to be an assumption that if not FORCED, most people will not get trained. (I disagree with this premise)
    Wrong answer. Just about every state requires hunter education courses. Hunter Education Requirements in the United States and Canada ? Texas Parks & Wildlife Department

    Do you know how many calls I get during hunting season from people who must hurry up and take a hunter ed course because they got a ticket for hunting without it and they have to complete it before their court date. They usually don't like my answer.

    What are you basing your assumption that people will do training on their own? I would like to see some data on that, although I am certain there is none and you are simply guessing to support your position.

    There is good data to show that the number of hunting related injuries and deaths has dropped after all the states implemented hunter ed requirements. Since there is no good data for concealed carry, why would one simply assume training for CHL would make zero difference?
    Last edited by farronwolf; February 3rd, 2013 at 12:30 PM.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #219
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    Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

    Hmmm then the point is settled. There is no acceptable hard data. All the data posted has been proclaimed irrelevant. Anecdotal evidence is not wanted, or deemed "feel good" information. So, OP you have an answer, there is no hard data.

    As to the posit that we should NOT have mandatory requirements because we should trust people to do the right thing, why not just trust everyone and not carry at all, after all people will do the right thing.

    Just another bit of anecdotal info though. AL is a no training state. A person I know was ecstatic to discover that all he had to do was buy a gun, pay $20 and carry. While a friend of mine was telling him how to LOAD his new Glock he pulls the weapon from his gym bag and proceeds to wave it around. NO weapon knowledge/experience, no safety training and he can now carry anywhere in this and ALL other states (according to him). He has also said "I don't need any training, how hard is it after all? Point and pull this after all. I refuse to be around him any more. His stupidity MAY only affect him, but it CAN affect others and I don't wanna be one of them


    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

  10. #220
    Senior Member Array mastercapt's Avatar
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    In Florida training is required, unless you can show a firearms exposure/training from a documented source. Such as your military discharge DD213(?),
    membership in a gun club, previous shooting experience, etc. We are talking paper provable here. "My cousing lest me shoot his gun..." don't cut it.
    I have had a permit in upstate NY in the early 1970s. Also shot competion in skeet, pistol. and have skeet trophies on the shelf. However, when appying in Florida, I took the course to learn the ins and outs of the state laws re: carrying.
    Moreover, if y'all practice at the range, I am sure that you see a few shooters who cannot hit a full size sillouette target at 10 yards.Not even the paper bordering it. You want these Bozos to pull a gun in a public area, and risk hitting a bystander or two? ........The previous comment about "men can handle the situation" won't give him marksmanship.
    Training also may tell someone when NOT to shoot.

    IMHO , I believe something like Floridas training law should be manditory, and have a bye for those who have previous training. Like maybe 4 hours with a live fire session.
    Addenda/edit:
    One of the things which helps determine reciprocy in permits is the training "required" to qualify for the permit. I know many states require NO training or experience, all the way to someone complained about a 12 hour course.
    The prople who do the administrative determinations may or may not be firearm enthusiasts, but they look at these things. So they question in their minds about letting an out-of-state permit holder who did not need any experiencetraining to carry in thier state which required a course before their permit was granted.
    I am not saying they exhibit rational intelligence, but their word becomes law (or rules)

  11. #221
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Wrong answer. Just about every state requires hunter education courses. Hunter Education Requirements in the United States and Canada ? Texas Parks & Wildlife Department

    Do you know how many calls I get during hunting season from people who must hurry up and take a hunter ed course because they got a ticket for hunting without it and they have to complete it before their court date. They usually don't like my answer.

    What are you basing your assumption that people will do training on their own? I would like to see some data on that, although I am certain there is none and you are simply guessing to support your position.

    There is good data to show that the number of hunting related injuries and deaths has dropped after all the states implemented hunter ed requirements. Since there is no good data for concealed carry, why would one simply assume training for CHL would make zero difference?
    You are missing a major piece of the puzzle....hunters are actively out there hunting. Permit holders are not.

    What do I base my assumption that most people do get basic training and education on? Only anecdotal evidence....personal and otherwise...and the fact that indeed, there are not very many accidents compared with actual permit holders or even gun owners. I dont know, but again, without evidence why would I *demand* something?

    Do YOU really think most people buy a gun to carry and do not learn the basics on how to work it and how to shoot it?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #222
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
    Hmmm then the point is settled. There is no acceptable hard data. All the data posted has been proclaimed irrelevant. Anecdotal evidence is not wanted, or deemed "feel good" information. So, OP you have an answer, there is no hard data.

    As to the posit that we should NOT have mandatory requirements because we should trust people to do the right thing, why not just trust everyone and not carry at all, after all people will do the right thing.

    .
    So why do people insist on forcing something on people without the data?

    And since there's no data re: your second question, that's what many people do. It's a choice, which I think is the point...being responsible for yourself and making those choices.

    I still firmly believe in my signatures, the second one listed per this discussion.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #223
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    . Since there is no good data for concealed carry, why would one simply assume training for CHL would make zero difference?
    Of course there's data...lots of it. Accidents, negligible discharges, menacing, etc. These things are a matter of record.

    What Suntzu and I have pointed out is that there is NO DIFFERENCE in the data for states with OR without mandatory training. None that we seen produced. We havent seen anyone put the data together and make the comparison.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #224
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Do YOU really think most people buy a gun to carry and do not learn the basics on how to work it and how to shoot it?
    Yes, I see them all the time in my classes.

    I am missing no point about the hunters. The proof is that with training accidents are reduced.

    Certainly CHL holders aren't using their guns as much as hunters, the likelyhood that one will ever be involved in a serious crime, much less self defense shooting is very very small. To think the results would be any different because of a smaller group of incidents certainly goes against all logic and statistics.

    Oh and just because you don't see it or haven't found it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  15. #225
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Oh and just because you don't see it or haven't found it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
    Just like sub atomic particles...but it was not taught as being a fact until proven...until then a theory.....and I for one do not want laws based on theory..
    Do you?
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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