Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states - Page 16

Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

This is a discussion on Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Driver education reduces accidents, hunter education reduces accidents, safety training on jobsites reduce accidents, but CHL education doesn't reduce accidents or law violations. All dangerous ...

Page 16 of 36 FirstFirst ... 612131415161718192026 ... LastLast
Results 226 to 240 of 532
Like Tree139Likes

Thread: Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

  1. #226
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,788
    Driver education reduces accidents, hunter education reduces accidents, safety training on jobsites reduce accidents, but CHL education doesn't reduce accidents or law violations. All dangerous things but yet one is miraculously an anomaly.
    Ogre, Hopyard and glockman10mm like this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor


  2. #227
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Driver education reduces accidents, hunter education reduces accidents, safety training on jobsites reduce accidents, but CHL education doesn't reduce accidents or law violations. All dangerous things but yet one is miraculously an anomaly.
    Well it's hard to believe that you still dont get this:

    Of course training reduces accidents.

    There is no evidence that MANDATORY training makes any difference, for any number of reasons. Like the assumption that many people would not do so.

    Really, this cant be spelled out any clearer for you. I'm sorry you cant grasp that difference.

    And you ignored my direct question: Do you think that most people who get a permit do/would NOT learn the basics to operate the gun and shoot it?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #228
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,788
    Apparently you didn't read post 224. I answered it.

    How many people do you come in contact with each year that have their permit or are planning on getting their permits? What are you basing your assumptions on that they do train and learn to use their equipment? 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 people?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  4. #229
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,882
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Driver education reduces accidents, hunter education reduces accidents, safety training on jobsites reduce accidents, but CHL education doesn't reduce accidents or law violations. All dangerous things but yet one is miraculously an anomaly.
    You were not a math major or stats major were you LOL (look, I am just kidding here). What percentage of the population buys guns? What percentage for self defense? What percentage apply for a CCP or CHL?
    What percentage of those already has gun safety by virtue of being in the military, LE, grew up with guns (yeah I know, that one is a hit or miss). What percentage that is left is totally incompetent regardless of training? What percentage is left?
    Now...What percentage of those folks actually take their weapon with them and how often (surprisingly few)
    Now, look at what you have left.

    Now look at incidents. You need to only include inicdents that are directly involved with CC'ing, not the fact the guy shot himself inthe foot at his house.
    Now, which of these inicdents happened to folks that were trained vs not trained.
    Now, how many of these incidents could have been prevented by what was included in the syllabus for the required training for that state.

    It is not as easy as saying..duh it is common sense.

    Studies have shown thee was a decease in assualt weapon deaths during the AWB. But the numbers were so low to be insignifican even if they are true (they are dubious at best).

    The amount of CC induced accidents is so low it is not measurable. Yeah, you can quote Obama and say "if it saves one life"...but laws are not made based on that assumption.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  5. #230
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Apparently you didn't read post 224. I answered it.

    How many people do you come in contact with each year that have their permit or are planning on getting their permits? What are you basing your assumptions on that they do train and learn to use their equipment? 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 people?
    You know that *most* of those people in your classes had no intention of getting an education or training on their weapon and are only doing so to get their permit? Really? So most people that sign up really have no interest in guns and are just buying one to stick in a holster or purse like a cell phone and forget about it? Please.

    And if someone is motivated enough to buy a deadly weapon and carry it daily, yes, I believe that MOST people learn the basics of using it. Many are people with families, kids. They believe in safety. Because I do believe that most people are basically responsible. If they are not, all the mandatory training in the world wont help anything and in the end, the anti's will win and have what they need to take our guns.

    So back to square one...there is no reason to force training on people if we cant quantify it. I cant, and you cant.

    IMO, less govt interference is better, esp. since there is zero benchmark for 'how much training' makes a difference either.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #231
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,788
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You were not a math major or stats major were you LOL (look, I am just kidding here). What percentage of the population buys guns? What percentage for self defense? What percentage apply for a CCP or CHL?
    What percentage of those already has gun safety by virtue of being in the military, LE, grew up with guns (yeah I know, that one is a hit or miss). What percentage that is left is totally incompetent regardless of training? What percentage is left?
    Now...What percentage of those folks actually take their weapon with them and how often (surprisingly few)
    Now, look at what you have left

    Now look at incidents. You need to only include inicdents that are directly involved with CC'ing, not the fact the guy shot himself inthe foot at his house.
    Now, which of these inicdents happened to folks that were trained vs not trained.
    Now, how many of these incidents could have been prevented by what was included in the syllabus for the required training for that state.

    It is not as easy as saying..duh it is common sense.

    Studies have shown thee was a decease in assualt weapon deaths during the AWB. But the numbers were so low to be insignifican even if they are true (they are dubious at best).

    The amount of CC induced accidents is so low it is not measurable. Yeah, you can quote Obama and say "if it saves one life"...but laws are not made based on that assumption.
    No, I was an accounting major, but did have to take statistics, and quite a few other math courses which had no bearing on my current line of work.

    So if they have a ND at home you ignore the fact they have their CHL because it is not out in public. Why? Don't you remember the firearms safety portion of your CHL class and the portion of safe storage in the home? That applies everywhere, not just when you are in a public place.

    Why would you bring up the previous AWB? Did that ban get rid of all those types of guns. NO, there was never a time when you couldn't purchase one, and the ones that were already in the public hands weren't somehow in operable. You admit that the numbers went down, however slightly, so what would the numbers be if it had not expired? You may not want to post that answer because the anti's could use it. If you're up on the math end of things, run the numbers and see what they would be now or 30 yrs from now if the ban hadn't expired based on your admitted "slight" decrease in incidents.

    No I am not advocating a new AWB, so lets not get into that topic.

    Doesn't Texas post crimes as they relate to CHL holders? Why would you say it is immeasureable? And if you haven't looked at the record when the 1995 CHL law was being debated in the legislature you can't really say what the reasoning was can you? Because if there were assumptions from other things like driving, hunter ed, or whatever, the law certainly would have been made based on it, whether you like it or not, because there certainly wasn't any data for them to look at in Texas.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  7. #232
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,882
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Accidents in the home could have happened if they had a CHL or not. It is not related to an accident in the course of CC'ing which is the reason why you have the mandatory training.

    As far as crime stats: the only ones I care about are the ones that are directly realted to the misuse of a firearm with somebody with a CHL that had no criminal intent i.e. the person used bad judgement, had an ND, or a tresspassing charge becasue they did not know the law about where they coulld be.

    Crimes such as robbery et al have nothing to do with mandatory training because said training would not stop it.

    Keep it coming though. If I am proven wrong that is cool.......but the math is on my side.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  8. #233
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,788
    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    You know that *most* of those people in your classes had no intention of getting an education or training on their weapon and are only doing so to get their permit? Really? So most people that sign up really have no interest in guns and are just buying one to stick in a holster or purse like a cell phone and forget about it? Please.

    And if someone is motivated enough to buy a deadly weapon and carry it daily, yes, I believe that MOST people learn the basics of using it. Many are people with families, kids. They believe in safety. Because I do believe that most people are basically responsible. If they are not, all the mandatory training in the world wont help anything and in the end, the anti's will win and have what they need to take our guns.

    So back to square one...there is no reason to force training on people if we cant quantify it. I cant, and you cant.

    IMO, less govt interference is better, esp. since there is zero benchmark for 'how much training' makes a difference either.
    Again, what are you basing your assumptions on that people do seek out training and knowledge when not required. You failed to answer that. Because you "think" they do doesn't mean much IMO.

    I certainly do know how many people in my classes immediately put their fingers on the trigger of the "grey" guns we use in class. I can tell you how many folks load bullets in the mags backwards, or don't know anything about sight picture or trigger control, stance, or whatever.

    I certainly do know how many renewals come through class and have been carrying a gun that doesn't run, or they don't know how to run the gun, or think the sights are off because they aren't hitting where they think it should.

    I do know the number of new shooters that have been through our classes and didn't pass the proficiency portion during the class, yet failed to contact us to requalify so they could submit their paperwork. They certainly weren't interested in learning how to shoot and simply gave up.
    Ogre likes this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  9. #234
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,788
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Keep it coming though. If I am proven wrong that is cool.......but the math is on my side.
    If the math is on your side, then you must have run the numbers. We all would be happy to see your results.

    We are on post number 234 of this thread and you have been sitting on the numbers which you asked for in the first post. Very curious.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  10. #235
    Member Array Ogre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    292
    We are wrong to make assumpitons that people will not get training if not forced, based on our anecdotal evidence they they do not. I.E. I do know people who have bought a gun, and paid their $20, got their permit, and DO indeed carry, that have NEVER fired their EDC weapon, and two that have never fired ANY weapon. BUT we must allow the assumption that everyone who buys a weapon is indeed responsible enough to get training without it being mandated. We are to assume that mandated training, by virtue of it being mandated not voluntary is WORSE than no training. By that logic we should never require our troops to train, nor our LE for that matter Doctors need not be made to train to perform surgery, as mandated trainng is worse than no training-guess they stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

  11. #236
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Again, what are you basing your assumptions on that people do seek out training and knowledge when not required. You failed to answer that. Because you "think" they do doesn't mean much IMO.

    I certainly do know how many people in my classes immediately put their fingers on the trigger of the "grey" guns we use in class. I can tell you how many folks load bullets in the mags backwards, or don't know anything about sight picture or trigger control, stance, or whatever.

    I certainly do know how many renewals come through class and have been carrying a gun that doesn't run, or they don't know how to run the gun, or think the sights are off because they aren't hitting where they think it should.

    I do know the number of new shooters that have been through our classes and didn't pass the proficiency portion during the class, yet failed to contact us to requalify so they could submit their paperwork. They certainly weren't interested in learning how to shoot and simply gave up.
    I did answer the question...I said I didnt know but gave reasons for my belief.

    You gave reasons for your belief and you just reiterated them here ^^ in detail.

    And it still does not answer *how* you know how many would NOT have sought out training if it wasnt required. None of them indicate that.

    You dont know so you also could have been honest and said so. I know it's hard, because you've been using this same reasoning to support your belief. It doesnt. It shows 'you dont know.'
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #237
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,882
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If the math is on your side, then you must have run the numbers. We all would be happy to see your results.

    We are on post number 234 of this thread and you have been sitting on the numbers which you asked for in the first post. Very curious.
    Come on. Dude, you are starting to take this way to seriously. There are no numbers. If there is 0 data then there any result is unspecified. I am not sitting on any numbers. You profess that mandatory training is better than states with no mandatory training. That is cool if you state that as an opinion. But it sure as heck is not fact.

    And I got exactly what I wanted from this thread, for the most part. Folks out there can't prove anything, in fact, can't even come up with any data to even support thier premise which BTW they insists should be law.

    Quite sad ya know. Folks want laws on hunches and guesses and too make money (I am talking about the state). Not one shred of evidence that it saves lives, protects the public, or protects one from themselves. That is truly the sad thing.

    And folks wonder why the POTUS, congress, and others can get laws passed. It is because you don't need data showing a compelling reason for laws anymore. This is just another example of that.

    But anyhoo...happy Super Bowl sunday...go Ravens! Anybody ever get hold of some facts then that would be great.

    BTW: As far as the math. To provide dat to someone you usually have it so it can be given as a percentage. Well, if your data is 0 plug that into a calculator and use any whole number as the numerator, try to figure out a percentage. Your calculator will give you "ERROR".
    9MMare likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  13. #238
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    789
    I dont believe the issue is about training at all. That is why no one is concerned with the OPs premise on whther or not training provides any difference. Facts are not required. This whole gun issue is about control. People being injured has no bearing on this topic and no bearing on the actions of the liberal folks in charge. It just so happens they can tax you more without having to actually raise your taxes.
    Equality does not exist in the real world - it is a fiction to help the self esteem of those people who consistently fail to succeed.
    Retired SF(SP) CMSgt 1979-2005

  14. #239
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,788
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    BTW: As far as the math. To provide dat to someone you usually have it so it can be given as a percentage. Well, if your data is 0 plug that into a calculator and use any whole number as the numerator, try to figure out a percentage. Your calculator will give you "ERROR".
    I'll help you with the math. The reason you get an error is because it is zero percentage. And my calculator give an answer of 0, not error. Maybe you should get a new calculator.

    I will also give you the percentages for Texas CHL convictions in 2011 for the following, which is part of what you asked for in your original post, and were readily available to you from the DPS website.

    Deadly Conduct Discharge of firearm - 0.00000385635%

    Unlicensed Carry - 0.00002892263%

    Unlicensed carry of weapon - 0.0000308508%

    Aggrivated assault w/deadly weapon - 0.00000578452%

    Texas doesn't list the criminal trespass numbers, so I can't give you them. Now the numbers are there for this side of the argument on your question. Please post the numbers for your side of the argument for rates of states which don't require mandatory training. Once you gather that information, we can either have a discussion or put all this nonsense to rest because the numbers should speak for themselves.

    Also, if you look over the entire list of convictions that Texas lists, your calculator would give you a whole bunch of "errors". Not because it can't be computed, but simply because they didn't happen, so there was 0% of it occuring.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  15. #240
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,882
    Your calculator seriously gives you a zero when you divde by zero? You need a new calculator. You can't divide by zero. Anyhoo, since we now know where the math rpblem stems from (your defectvie calculator LOL). Anyway, now find the stats for the other states. Ya see, that is not my job. My stance is mandatory training does not significanlty lower all of the things I have stated before. You sir are the one that want to mandate said training so I would like to think you can prove it. To do so it goes back to the fundamental question? Which states are better?
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

powered by mybb advanced weapons

,
powered by mybb all movies
,

powered by mybb best exercise

,
powered by mybb code search
,

powered by mybb criminal law

,

powered by mybb free full movies online

,

powered by mybb free online training course

,

powered by mybb law and order

,

powered by mybb legal

,

powered by mybb paintball stuff

,
powered by mybb reference
,
powered by mybb video of potty training
Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors