Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

This is a discussion on Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by suntzu OK...how about this: the government should have to show a compelling need to make a law. To make a law/requirement that ...

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Thread: Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

  1. #286
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    OK...how about this: the government should have to show a compelling need to make a law. To make a law/requirement that you need training the govenrment should have to provide data as to why that is true. If they can not then there is no compelling reason to make such a requirement.
    Following that through, it is an infringement because the govenment can not prove their is any gain to society or public safety by putting in such a requirment.
    Do you support privately owned atomic bombs? Would you feel comfortable/safe with your neighbor owning one? Can you provide any statistics regarding accidental discharges of privately owned atomic weapons stored in basements?

    I think there have been plenty of studies done, both statistically and psychologically, regarding the value of training. Please refer to "On Combat" and "On Killing" by Lt. Grossman. Refer to my previous stats, which were dismissed, regarding hunting. Please refer to "The Talent Code" by Coyle regarding practice. The fact is that training and practice improves skills. The government, in some states, uses this factual concept to give a compelling reason for required training.

    And no, I don't think the average gun owner or carrier will actively seek training on their own and I don't think they will practice properly on a consistent basis. And no, I don't trust that all "lifelong shooters" received good training or quality advice from their parents, grandparents, brothers, etc. Some did, I'm sure, but I'm also sure some received extremely poor advice and spent their weekends shooting propane tanks with pappy.

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  3. #287
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    Do you support privately owned atomic bombs? Would you feel comfortable/safe with your neighbor owning one? Can you provide any statistics regarding accidental discharges of privately owned atomic weapons stored in basements?

    I think there have been plenty of studies done, both statistically and psychologically, regarding the value of training. Please refer to "On Combat" and "On Killing" by Lt. Grossman. Refer to my previous stats, which were dismissed, regarding hunting. Please refer to "The Talent Code" by Coyle regarding practice. The fact is that training and practice improves skills. The government, in some states, uses this factual concept to give a compelling reason for required training.

    And no, I don't think the average gun owner or carrier will actively seek training on their own and I don't think they will practice properly on a consistent basis. And no, I don't trust that all "lifelong shooters" received good training or quality advice from their parents, grandparents, brothers, etc. Some did, I'm sure, but I'm also sure some received extremely poor advice and spent their weekends shooting propane tanks with pappy.
    Again...we are talking about comparing things that are occuring in the US today. Not hypotheticals about nyclear weapons. The data can be found by the governemtn because there are hundreds of thousands CHL/CCP holders in the nation. They can have police set up a category for crimes that are related to CC'ing. But they do not. From experience in states that have no mandatory training I do not see any difference in safety or other issues regarding CC issues. Can you state factually that there is a difference?

    We all agree training is important. But has it really shown a difference between the two types of states? Seriously, do you honestly think that if folks in NH and Alaska and VT would put up with a boat load of errors commited by folks CCing such as ND's in PUBLIC (not the range, not at home), getting arrested for not understanding the laws ect....First of all you would see it in the news quite often...which you do not. As I said previously, I had a job in NH which for 6 years I talked to the COP in a few major cities (tha is 3 for NH LOL), most county Sherrifs, and State Police. And they have not really seen folks CC'ing being a problem.

    And the government can use factual concepts all they want. They are too lazy to collect data to find the truth or are afraid of the results..which I am positive would show there is hardly a difference between the states.

    Now, since you seem to enjoy staying off topic and bringing up non relative questions to the thread please answer me this:
    To your knowledge, or anybody's, from using the news as a source or forums such as this, have you seen a difference in folks hurting others with their firearms with ND's or bad shoots (CC'ers only) when comparing states such as TX and non training states such as NH? Have you seen or heard on this forum a difference in folks getting arrested for carrying their guns in places they are not suppose to be. In short sir, do you have any anecdotel evidence that states like TX make CC'ers any more competent than their peers in non mandatory training states?

    And if you can find an example of misuse of nuclear weapons, feel free to throw that in. But at least give me the decencey of an answer to the question which is directly related to the OP. You may do it in essay form or a simple yes or no.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  4. #288
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Since everyone else is off topic here...for the instructors our there..how many folks actually can not pass a CHL/CCP test? And a follow up. Does anyone here really honestly beleive that if the CHL/CCP class is the only training someone has been given (BTW:the shooting is not training in most states, just a qual) that they are a better shot during a SD situation than they were before the x amoount of rounds they had to do before the test?

    How effective are they 12 months down the road. Some folks here like 38 Special feel that folks won't do anymore training anyway.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  5. #289
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind a two-part federal law approach.

    1. All CCL and OC participants MUST receive training.

    2. Training is a required class for all seniors in high school nationwide.

    3. Anyone born before 1997 is exempt from the law.

    4. Public classes provided once a quarter by local LEO (for those who did not grow up here, those who skip out of high-school for a plethora of reasons, or home-schooled children). Private classes by certified teachers also accepted (as it is now).

    5. The "Full Faith and Credit" clause of the constitution will be applied to CCLs.

    That takes care of both training, and making sure pretty much every citizen has the ability to carry concealed or OC safely once they are old enough to handle a weapon.

    And let me comment on the ubiquitous "I don't want the feds involved..." reaction up front. They already are. There's plenty of national laws regarding guns and restrictions already - no new law like the one I'm thinking about would create a precedent. The NICS is basically an approval list already.

  6. #290
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    I wouldn't mind a two-part federal law approach.

    1. All CCL and OC participants MUST receive training.

    2. Training is a required class for all seniors in high school nationwide.

    3. Anyone born before 1997 is exempt from the law.

    4. Public classes provided once a quarter by local LEO (for those who did not grow up here, those who skip out of high-school for a plethora of reasons, or home-schooled children). Private classes by certified teachers also accepted (as it is now).

    5. The "Full Faith and Credit" clause of the constitution will be applied to CCLs.

    That takes care of both training, and making sure pretty much every citizen has the ability to carry concealed or OC safely once they are old enough to handle a weapon.

    And let me comment on the ubiquitous "I don't want the feds involved..." reaction up front. They already are. There's plenty of national laws regarding guns and restrictions already - no new law like the one I'm thinking about would create a precedent. The NICS is basically an approval list already.
    I disagree with all of it but heck, it is your opinion. I am curious to why folks born before 1997 are exempt?
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  7. #291
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Again...we are talking about comparing things that are occuring in the US today. Not hypotheticals about nyclear weapons. The data can be found by the governemtn because there are hundreds of thousands CHL/CCP holders in the nation. They can have police set up a category for crimes that are related to CC'ing. But they do not. From experience in states that have no mandatory training I do not see any difference in safety or other issues regarding CC issues. Can you state factually that there is a difference?

    We all agree training is important. But has it really shown a difference between the two types of states? Seriously, do you honestly think that if folks in NH and Alaska and VT would put up with a boat load of errors commited by folks CCing such as ND's in PUBLIC (not the range, not at home), getting arrested for not understanding the laws ect....First of all you would see it in the news quite often...which you do not. As I said previously, I had a job in NH which for 6 years I talked to the COP in a few major cities (tha is 3 for NH LOL), most county Sherrifs, and State Police. And they have not really seen folks CC'ing being a problem.

    And the government can use factual concepts all they want. They are too lazy to collect data to find the truth or are afraid of the results..which I am positive would show there is hardly a difference between the states.

    Now, since you seem to enjoy staying off topic and bringing up non relative questions to the thread please answer me this:
    To your knowledge, or anybody's, from using the news as a source or forums such as this, have you seen a difference in folks hurting others with their firearms with ND's or bad shoots (CC'ers only) when comparing states such as TX and non training states such as NH? Have you seen or heard on this forum a difference in folks getting arrested for carrying their guns in places they are not suppose to be. In short sir, do you have any anecdotel evidence that states like TX make CC'ers any more competent than their peers in non mandatory training states?

    And if you can find an example of misuse of nuclear weapons, feel free to throw that in. But at least give me the decencey of an answer to the question which is directly related to the OP. You may do it in essay form or a simple yes or no.
    The nuclear weapon "hypothetical" is occurring in the U.S. today...the government prohibits ownership. The point of the question was to show that laws can be made based on common sense even when statistical facts don't exist. I'll take your refusal to answer he question as a sign that you agree with prohibited nuclear weapon ownership.

    And like I've said, I don't have stats comparing states. I don't need them. I don't think they're relevant. I think all states should require basic firearms safety and training, training on laws and liability, and proficiency testing. Why? Because, as you've even stated, training is good. Requirining it insures that all carriers have had some type of professional instruction and it insures everyone understands laws, liability, and can handle a gun. If they choose to operate contrary to their training afterwards then their actions are even less defensible and they should be charged accordingly along with the revocation of their permit.

    All that aside, on to your request:

    Uniontown, PA • October 18, 2008. Leroy S. Higinbotham Jr., 39, was arrested while sitting in his vehicle outside the home of his ex-wife, Jodie Higinbotham. He was charged with two counts of making terroristic threats for telling the couple’s 16-year-old son that he planned to shoot Jodie and her boyfriend, Mark Faris, 45. Leroy showed his son a gun at the time he made the statements and the handgun was found in his car at the time of his arrest.

    Pittsburgh, PA • October 12, 2008. Justin Dunlap, 22, was charged with reckless endangerment, aggravated assault, and discharging a gun in public after investigators said he fired shots at a 19-year-old man outside a nightclub.

    Philadelphia, PA • October 5, 2008. Christian Squillaciotti, 33, was charged with two counts of attempted murder, aggravated assault, and related offenses stemming from a road rage incident. Squillaciotti, a CCW licensee, fired at least four times toward a vehicle being driven by Thomas Timko on a Philadelphia expressway. Timko was wounded on the side of his forehead but his eight-year-old daughter, who was in the vehicle with him, was not injured.

    Upper Darby, Pennsylvania • October 5, 2008. Deaone McNeal, a 24-year-old CCW licensee, was driving with his 7-year-old daughter when he was arrested for pulling a gun on a woman and her 2-year-old daughter. The victim was turning at an intersection when McNeal ran a red light and almost hit her. McNeal then chased the victim and tried to run her car off the road; he pulled up alongside her screaming obscenities and pointed his gun at her. The victim called police and McNeal was pulled over and found wearing an empty holster, he denied that he had a gun, but police searched McNeal’s vehicle and found a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol loaded with 16 hollow-point bullets in an extended clip. McNeal was charged with several misdemeanors, including assault, stalking and harassment, and endangering the welfare of a child. McNeal was granted his CCW license about 10 months earlier, in January 2008, and two months after being granted the license he was arrested in another incident for aggravated assault and simple assault.

    Lancaster, PA • September 15, 2008. Anthony Roberts, 31, was arrested after leaving his loaded pistol at a playground. The gun was found by a 7-year-old girl who gave it to an adult at the playground who called the police. Roberts, a CCW licensee, said he must have dropped the gun at the playground, which is a no gun zone, so Roberts was charged with trespassing after notice for bringing the gun to the playground.

    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania • July 13, 2004. Arabo “Raybo” Allen allegedly shot a bystander in the leg with a 9mm pistol during an altercation with another person. Allen was later arraigned on charges of aggravated assault, attempted homicide, and reckless endangerment. The charges were later dropped when a witness failed to appear in court.

    Chartiers Valley School District, Pennsylvania • August 29, 2003. Charles Bolden, transportation director of the Chartiers Valley School District, carried a loaded Glock .40-caliber handgun onto school property in one of his motorcycle saddlebags. The School Board later suspended Bolden for four months without pay for incompetency, neglect of duty, unintentionally bringing a loaded firearm onto school property and hindering an investigation.

    Chester County, Pennsylvania • November 14, 2001. A gun carried by 32-year-old Cesar Solis accidentally went off in a Chester County tavern, injuring three people including himself – one seriously. Solis was charged with two counts of aggravated assault, two counts of recklessly endangering another person, and one count of discharging a weapon in a building. Police said Solis, who had a license to carry the gun, was at the Birch Inn late Sunday night with his brother when Cesar Solis pulled the gun from his waistband. The gun discharged and hit his brother and Sandra Pierson, who was seated at a nearby table.

    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania • January 27, 2000. Louis Mockewich, 34, shot and killed a neighbor who was shoveling snow behind his row house. The two neighbors were arguing over where the victim was placing the snow, and Mockewich's responded by pulling out his gun, for which he had a CCW license, and shooting the 31-year-old man. The victim also had a CCW license.

    There are also cases in mandatory training states. Again, I don't think it's relevant.

  8. #292
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I disagree with all of it but heck, it is your opinion. I am curious to why folks born before 1997 are exempt?
    Simple. Anyone currently out of highschool wouldn't be able to take the class in highschool. It's a way to allow OC to continue without mandating training that isn't actually being offered for free like the highschool is doing.

    Personally, I like the idea of making the federal government provide training for the very people that would then take up arms against it if the time comes. After all, who would do most of that training? Since police are already overworked, I'll guarantee you it'd be NRA certified trainers, just like it is now. If that's the case, then you can also bet that 2A teaching would be incorporated, as well as local and state laws.

    Heck, it'd probably be the best civics course they'd get in their 12 years of education.

    EDIT: though as I think about it, I'd rather the law read like the "No Child Left Behind" law where the federal govt. mandated it, but the state governments provided it. That way, the fed. govt. reach is still limited.

  9. #293
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    You are kidding right....almost all of those are malicious crimminal activities. Almost all have nothing to do with mandatory trainning. I am talking about stupid things like the idiot that left his gun in a playground and I highly doubt any amount of training would solve that morons problem. Another more valid one is the guy who pbrought the gun on school property.

    You mostly listed crimes by people that simply had a liscense and that no amoount of training would have prevented it. Like the person making terroistic threats. I am sure that is not covered in any CHL class just as do not rob a bank is in any CHL class. These folks aren;t being chraged with a manslaughter charge or something that was a mistake when they drew their firearm.

    They were arrested for attempted homicides and such. The dudes with road rage would have been arrested for something even if they did not have a weapon. And the one guy obviously knew he was wrong because he said he did not have a gun. He must have known the law.

    Come on dude....do you honestly beleive that all but maybe one of those incidents would have been prevented by a CHL course tha they took years before?
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  10. #294
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    This was from the OP and I was pretty darn specific:
    1. The wrongful use of a firearm by CHL/CCP holder
    2. Inicidents of arrests for trespassing by CHL/CCP holders
    3. Errant shots fired by CHL/CCP holders
    4. Illegel use of a fireamr by CHL/CCP holders EDIT:such as brandishing, bad shoots, ects....NOT crimes committed malichievously)
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  11. #295
    Member Array 38special's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You are kidding right....almost all of those are malicious crimminal activities. Almost all have nothing to do with mandatory trainning. I am talking about stupid things like the idiot that left his gun in a playground and I highly doubt any amount of training would solve that morons problem. Another more valid one is the guy who pbrought the gun on school property.

    You mostly listed crimes by people that simply had a liscense and that no amoount of training would have prevented it. Like the person making terroistic threats. I am sure that is not covered in any CHL class just as do not rob a bank is in any CHL class. These folks aren;t being chraged with a manslaughter charge or something that was a mistake when they drew their firearm.

    They were arrested for attempted homicides and such. The dudes with road rage would have been arrested for something even if they did not have a weapon. And the one guy obviously knew he was wrong because he said he did not have a gun. He must have known the law.

    Come on dude....do you honestly beleive that all but maybe one of those incidents would have been prevented by a CHL course tha they took years before?
    I believe that training on the responsibilities of carrying a gun and the liability surrounding carry COULD prevent some hotheads from improperly using emir firearm during road rage incidents and/or arguments.

    And these could have been prevented with training:

    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania • July 13, 2004. Arabo “Raybo” Allen allegedly shot a bystander in the leg with a 9mm pistol during an altercation with another person. Allen was later arraigned on charges of aggravated assault, attempted homicide, and reckless endangerment. The charges were later dropped when a witness failed to appear in court.

    Chartiers Valley School District, Pennsylvania • August 29, 2003. Charles Bolden, transportation director of the Chartiers Valley School District, carried a loaded Glock .40-caliber handgun onto school property in one of his motorcycle saddlebags. The School Board later suspended Bolden for four months without pay for incompetency, neglect of duty, unintentionally bringing a loaded firearm onto school property and hindering an investigation.

    Chester County, Pennsylvania • November 14, 2001. A gun carried by 32-year-old Cesar Solis accidentally went off in a Chester County tavern, injuring three people including himself – one seriously. Solis was charged with two counts of aggravated assault, two counts of recklessly endangering another person, and one count of discharging a weapon in a building. Police said Solis, who had a license to carry the gun, was at the Birch Inn late Sunday night with his brother when Cesar Solis pulled the gun from his waistband. The gun discharged and hit his brother and Sandra Pierson, who was seated at a nearby table.

  12. #296
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    One more thing about the list by 38Special...that is all for a 13 year period? And quite honestly only three look like they would fit into a CHL course. Yeah, you can make the arguement that some states include how to deescalate a situation but i don;t really think road rage is in that category. Inless you truly beleive a 10 hour class will change someones personality.

    But thanks for the stats....out of all the permit holders in PA you managed to find 9 cases and of those maybe three would be training related. In thirteen years. Bethca that comes out pretty darn close to oops's made in TX which has mandatory training. What you just told me is that training for CHL holders makes no difference!
    9MMare likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  13. #297
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Its not really simple, and to tell the truth, quite lopsided. It places the burden of proof on any responder who opines yes, they think it should be mandated training, to produce evidence to support their opinion.

    But of course, regardless of demonstration of training or education working for every other thing, then getting the same results from required training for firearms becomes an anomoly to those who are totally against it.

    But on the other side of the coin, those who are against are required to show nothing.

    But Im willing to bet there is evidence out their for someone who has the time on their hands to dig it up, but the facts wont get in the way of people who are against it.

    And I really dont blame people for standing behind their convictions on the issue, and I wish that firearms education was not necassary, but it is.
    Glockman you and I and a few other LEO that I can see here live in the same state Ky.
    As you know to OC in KY requires nothing. No class no qualifier no video where a cc permit does.
    Training vs non trained in the same state. So I will pose a question to you and the other Ky LEO which I respect highly.
    Can you or the others state with any compelling anecdotal or statistical or any other evidence that Ky OC carriers are having more ND or AD than CC carriers?
    Granted Kys, thank God educational class if pretty basic but it does exist whereas OC requires nothing at all. So if training is something that should be mandatory Ky should be showing a marked contrast between CC and OC carriers.
    Im pretty sure that isnt the case but you and other KY present LEO would i think be in better position to know if it is than I would presently.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Regardless of the info, will, it ever be good enough to at least consider the benefits over the conviction?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  15. #299
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    OK some early stats in:

    TX: -Unlawful carrying of a weapon-16 CHL holders
    -unlawful carry of handgun lic holder-23 CHL holders
    Both these I would assume would be directly related to trainng
    And that is for one year. I did not include any malicious criminal things

    PA- 38 Special has kindly given us 3 cases in 13 years

    hmmmmmmmmmmm


    Before anyone gets excited I know that the PA incidents are not stats. But I think it highlites my assumption that any incidents by CHL/CCP holders is so low that it is negligible on the radar screen. And being so low there would not be a difference between the two types of states.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Glockman you and I and a few other LEO that I can see here live in the same state Ky.
    As you know to OC in KY requires nothing. No class no qualifier no video where a cc permit does.
    Training vs non trained in the same state. So I will pose a question to you and the other Ky LEO which I respect highly.
    Can you or the others state with any compelling anecdotal or statistical or any other evidence that Ky OC carriers are having more ND or AD than CC carriers?
    Granted Kys, thank God educational class if pretty basic but it does exist whereas OC requires nothing at all. So if training is something that should be mandatory Ky should be showing a marked contrast between CC and OC carriers.
    Im pretty sure that isnt the case but you and other KY present LEO would i think be in better position to know if it is than I would presently.
    They only thing I can answer to with that one with any degree of honesty, is the CCW people at least seem to know how to use proper holsters and belts. Everytime I see someone OC, which is not that often, they are wearing some generic nylon contraption with integral mag pouch, carried on a belt to skinny and thin to be useless.

    Look, Im big on style alright? Function follows form.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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