Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states - Page 32

Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

This is a discussion on Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ogre I will say that I have NEVER been a proponent of mandatory training on marksmanship, laws or what have you-that is ...

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Thread: Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

  1. #466
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
    I will say that I have NEVER been a proponent of mandatory training on marksmanship, laws or what have you-that is a responsiblity issue that I feel people who get a CCW ought to look into on their own. I HAVE been a proponent of mandatory SAFETY training-even if most of the trainees ignore it or forget it when they walk out the door, if even one person is saved from an accident or ND because of said training it is worth the inconvenience to the rest of us (IMHO)
    Isn't this exactly the plea to emotion fallacy that Barrack Obama is making nationally to support his entire wide ranging anti-gun campaign?

    If just one person is saved today by banning all guns, and 25Million people are murdered or starved to death twenty or a hundred years later by the government turned to tyranny would you still think it was worth it then?
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  2. #467
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Your idea is similar to the one I've posted here before, that the industry could readily develop the
    equivalent of the SCUBA diver's C card. No card, no air. No card, no gun purchase or no
    ammo purchase. It could all be done privately with absolutely no government inolvement.
    In SCUBA training, they teach you about complicated health hazards associated with diving. They teach you complicated physical skills you need to manage the risks and dive safely. I can teach anyone gun safety with four simple rules. I can teach anyone to safely shoot a firearm in just a few minutes, and that's certainly more hands on training than you'll get at any CHL training class.

    Why is it that people on Internet forums are so bad at making good analogies?

  3. #468
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    The arguments are distinguishable. Carrying a gun for self defense has more concerns associated with it than simply owning or shooting a gun. We are arguing for mandatory training because PEOPLE are often unsafe and uneducated when it comes to firearms and firearm carry. The "anti-gun crowd" argues than GUNS are dangerous in and of themselves. They argue that guns should be banned because they don't like them, use them, or see the need for them. I haven't gotten that sentiment from anyone in this discussion.


    Everyone agrees that training is a good idea.

    Why arent you addressing the distinguishable argument of states with mandatory training and states without mandatory training showing no significant difference in public safety issues? Post 396 does contain data on this....it shows no significant difference at all in incidents...and one state has twice as many permit holders
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #469
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Your idea is similar to the one I've posted here before, that the industry could readily develop the
    equivalent of the SCUBA diver's C card. No card, no air. No card, no gun purchase or no
    ammo purchase. It could all be done privately with absolutely no government inolvement.

    No card, no *right*?

    Yowza.
    Aceoky likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #470
    Member Array Ogre's Avatar
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    Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

    See deuce now you are sounding like the "no regulations" crowd. Felons should have guns. Etc. What I proposed had no limitation other than 30 or so minutes of time. Time doing what you said you could do on about that.
    I even went further and said if you had your CCW (which should prove that you are responsible) you would not have to attend that 30min training.

    I never said you fail you don't get a gun. There is no failure that can be proven in such training. Like you said 4points to safety, a few minutes handling gun. Perhaps even an offer of additional low cost training later.

    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

  6. #471
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    I am in NO WAY "talking out of both sides of my mouth" what part of LAST RESORT did you not grasp? Probably the same way you refuse to accept SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    I cannot imagine anyone "Wanting" a civil war or major uprising etc. (well other than Obama and his bunch for evil reasons)....

    Also while you TRIED (and just made it certain that you failed) to say the argument is not the same as the gun grabbers, YOU proceed to use the very tactics they use, when you have no valid points you attempt to discredit (and insult) others who do not share your views and opinions ("talking out of both sides") etc.

    Very well done! (/sarcasm)

    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one post you say the 2nd Amendment is in place to fight a tyrannical government, foreign invaders, and to protect our other rights. This implies that you support using our weapons to fight those "in power" when we feel they are encroaching. In the next post you say we should attack our government through voting and other legal avenues and that I don't need to bring up assassination teams. Is our current administration tyrannical or not? Which is it?

  7. #472
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
    See deuce now you are sounding like the "no regulations" crowd. Felons should have guns. Etc. What I proposed had no limitation other than 30 or so minutes of time. Time doing what you said you could do on about that.
    I even went further and said if you had your CCW (which should prove that you are responsible) you would not have to attend that 30min training.

    I never said you fail you don't get a gun. There is no failure that can be proven in such training. Like you said 4points to safety, a few minutes handling gun. Perhaps even an offer of additional low cost training later.

    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.
    Since I guess "I" may fall into the bold category, allow me again to try to be more clear. A judge has set the sentence, most times a jury was involved, IF one has served their time and are released "to be in public" then they SHOULD be safe enough to not have ANY RIGHTS taken from them "forever" . IF not then they should never be released anyway.

    Now even IF you don't happen to agree with that, here is yet another valid (IMHO) reason for this to be changed, there are millions of laws, no lawyer can know them all, SO a tyrannical Government CAN use this to deny anyone their 2nd Amendment rights, shove a conviction through, and BTW like so many other such things those with the least $ and need the ability to protect themselves the most , are the easiest targets as they cannot afford the best lawyers.

    Paranoid? Maybe Not!

    You REALLY think this is not what the "mental health BS" is really all about? Sounds good on the surface huh? Keep guns out of the hands of "nuts" - the devil is in the details, WHOM decides what constitutes a "nut" and on what criteria, someone loses their parent, maybe witnesses the death, has deep depression and after counseling and treatment they are fine.... and NOW they will NEVER be able to have use of their 2nd amendment RIGHTS........There are simply too many ways this "sounds good" stuff can and likely will be used against us to take our rights. Made a post on the internet that sounds "nuts"? No more guns for you- the safety of the masses dictates you are stopped BEFORE you commit any crimes (with NO evidence that you ever would- NOT how our system is designed to work btw).

  8. #473
    Member Array Ogre's Avatar
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    Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

    Funny, I do agree about the felon thing provided the HAVE served their time. I also believe in truth in sentencing. You get 20 years, serve 20 years. And you don't get coddled, you work you learn you better yourself. I also don't believe in minimum sentencing for most "crimes". When I said felons I should have said VIOLENT CRIME parolees.

    I know felons I would trust more than some people who have never even had a traffic ticket with a gun.

    I just propose that every gun owner be taught safety and how to take care of their firearm. I've seen people buy a gun that have no clue as to how to use it safely, clean it, or even load it much less what to load it with. You can overcome ignorance with training, stupidity not so much.


    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

  9. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    In SCUBA training, they teach you about complicated health hazards associated with diving. They teach you complicated physical skills you need to manage the risks and dive safely. I can teach anyone gun safety with four simple rules. I can teach anyone to safely shoot a firearm in just a few minutes, and that's certainly more hands on training than you'll get at any CHL training class.

    Why is it that people on Internet forums are so bad at making good analogies?
    As a former SCUBA instructor, I can catagorically state that the right to partake in SCUBA diving is not in the Bill of Rights.

    Training may reduce gun accidents; it will do nothing to reduce gun violence.
    9MMare likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  10. #475
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Then I think we agree, the problem is not "gun ownership" at all it is sentencing (or lack thereof most times) . My view is along the lines of someone is young and does something stupid, they serve their time and they become model citizens, now have a family , yet they are not legally able to defend them- that is a violation of their rights IMO. (and that is but one example). IF someone is REALLY such a danger to be in public then laws against them being armed are useless anyway, we all know this, statistics verify what we know. These folks should never be released into the public to begin with, animals belong in cages where they cannot prey on those less able to protect themselves anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
    Funny, I do agree about the felon thing provided the HAVE served their time. I also believe in truth in sentencing. You get 20 years, serve 20 years. And you don't get coddled, you work you learn you better yourself. I also don't believe in minimum sentencing for most "crimes". When I said felons I should have said VIOLENT CRIME parolees.

    I know felons I would trust more than some people who have never even had a traffic ticket with a gun.




    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

  11. #476
    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Exactly!

    This is why the comparisons to driving SCUBA diving etc. fail on every level.....RIGHTS are exactly that!

    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    As a former SCUBA instructor, I can catagorically state that the right to partake in SCUBA diving is not in the Bill of Rights.

    Training may reduce gun accidents; it will do nothing to reduce gun violence.

  12. #477
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    No card, no *right*?

    Yowza.
    This sums up the whole thread. Only the italics around right doesn't really capture it does it? No right. That is the only point they're making. The rest is just special pleading.

  13. #478
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    As a former SCUBA instructor, I can catagorically state that the right to partake in SCUBA diving is not in the Bill of Rights.

    Training may reduce gun accidents; it will do nothing to reduce gun violence.
    Exactly. Which is the point we've made after everyone of these silly analogies.

    The SCUBA training is necessary because you likely aren't going to survive SCUBA diving without it, and it's mandatory because no one wants to participate in suicide. CHL training at best gives your four simple rules for safety, that anyone with common sense should already know intuitively, and they generally give no hands on training for operating and firing the gun. The student only has to demonstrate he can point the gun and pull the trigger.

  14. #479
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    Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    Exactly. Which is the point we've made after everyone of these silly analogies.

    The SCUBA training is necessary because you likely aren't going to survive SCUBA diving without it, and it's mandatory because no one wants to participate in suicide. CHL training at best gives your four simple rules for safety, that anyone with common sense should already know intuitively, and they generally give no hands on training for operating and firing the gun. The student only has to demonstrate he can point the gun and pull the trigger.
    That is where I must beg to differ. I KNOW people who evidently do not have that intuitive knowledge. I simply propose that everyone be given the training to ensure that they do not go about in ignorance on top of stupidity. We cannot legislate away stupidity, we can eliminate ignorance which by definition is the absence of knowledge.



    Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougb View Post
    You get evidence for the need for training every deer season. Look at the damage a bullet does. I don't care if you have no training and keep your weapon at home. The only casualties there are you and yours, but when you go out in public with no idea of what is proper or legal, then it becomes my problem. I believe in personal responsibility, but that doesn't help if you start shooting at the wrong time, wrong target, or just plain miss your intended target and hit me or mine.
    wrong target hit me or mine Oh you must be talking about the two cops today that shot two women while chasing a Male suspect. Think of the training they have had!

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