Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states - Page 7

Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

This is a discussion on Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 38special As I stated before, and what everyone conveniently ignores, is that we also have the right to free speech, free press, ...

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Thread: Mandatory traing states for CHL vs non training states

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 38special View Post
    As I stated before, and what everyone conveniently ignores, is that we also have the right to free speech, free press, and free assembly.
    Oh good. You want to bring up that analogy. Let's see if that works. I propose a blanket ban on speaking in public for anyone who has not registered with the government, submitted to a background check and completed government mandated training. We'll get to how the majority will define that training curriculum in a minute. I propose a blanket ban particularly on the preaching of any religious topics under similar regulations as speaking in general. Again, we'll get to the government mandated training curriculum for that later as well. That should really be an interesting topic. While we're at it, we're going to have to ban certain topics like Mohammed's mother and sexual proclivities altogether, because like pistol grips, that kind of sounds real dangerous. I'll write that down for my training curriculum so I don't forget later.

    You see we need to regulate the 1st Amendment because speech is dangerous. People get killed over speech all the time, and this is a public safety issue. I understand your rights and all that, but like you said, your freedom is open to restrictions. You can't just say anything you want. We have to balance public safety, not to mention the opinion of the majority, against these quaint 200 year old ideas about freedom and the government.


    Additionally, the Ninth Amendment proclaimes that there are fundamental rights we have which are not specifically named in the Constitution. I would argue that driving, flying, boating, etc. are fundamental rights. I cannot be denied those rights as long as I pass the licensing criteria. I would argue that being nude is a fundamental right and I would argue that jogging is a fundamental right, but nude jogging in public is illegal. The government can, does, and always will regulate rights.
    You could argue that, but there is a reason those things weren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution. The founders never set out to prevent the government from infringing on all our freedoms. They set out to prevent the government from infringing on the fundamental rights we would need to stop tyranny. That's why your tired old analogy fails, as it always does. Driving is not a fundamental right.

    And I do not want the government to deny gun ownership to anyone.
    That's exactly what you are proposing. You're proposing to give the government the power to deny gun ownership to everyone, and let's stop pretending this power to mandate training will only be applied to public carry.

    I don't think permits or registration should be required for gun ownership or carry in the home, but I do think it is responsible to require permits for public carry. I want to know that the carrier sitting next to me at the restaurant is competent and can effectively and safely handle their weapon if and when that time comes. I have no problem with someone requiring the same from me. It is about public responsibility.
    Oh sure. You don't want to deny everyone their rights, just those that want to exercise their right in public. Then again though, if we let the government ignore the bear portion of the 2nd Amendment, what protection do we have left for keep?


  2. #92
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Short answer; yes
    But what name did I call you?
    You can throw ad homenim at me personally, but my arguments still stand, and just like with Farronwolf and Hopyard, my arguments aren't going away.

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    And you are correct. But once again, fair or not, they are never going to disarm the police because of a few dummies like that. But, they are watching and recording every single civillian accident to use against you for future reference.

    If they pass a hi cap mag ban, I will still have access to them, but you wont. No, its not right, but that is the reality that we are facing.

    The citizenry must step up and be part of the problem solvers, and get out of the denial that paremeters cannot be legislatively placed on the 2A.
    I was going to be lazy and 'like' your post, but I dont really

    I do however, agree.

    That is why I could get behind an effort to require a written/online test of your state's laws and regulations. It protects us in 2 ways:

    --may keep us from breaking certain laws out of ignorance
    --may lessen the above, which as you pointed out, harms all gun owners and our gun rights.
    Hopyard likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #94
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In truth, because that is what the legislature in its infinite wisdom, conferred by our votes, determined.
    So, mob vs the Constitution and fundamental rights. Mob rule wins? That's your rationale?

  5. #95
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Glockman10MM If they pass a hi cap mag ban, I will still have access to them, but you wont. No, its not right, but that is the reality that we are facing.


    You probably will. Then again maybe you wont. You are in KY ya know. Not NY.

    Lord if I ever put my picture on here and you pull me over I can see a ticket long as my leg LOL
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  6. #96
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    Mandatory training, hmmm....

    So far Garry Trudeau has been silent on this. We will see.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Ah but you see had not the state meddled in the right of the person to have that firearm in their car on their person etc without a license which they shouldnt have to have anyway as long as they arent a criminal, there would be no expense for arrest court etc etc when someone exercises their constitutional right to have and bear a firearm any where they please.
    This simple concept will of course escape those who seem to lean toward the notion that as citizens we need someone to protect us from ourselves. If not for laws passed in violation of the constitution we would not have to try to keep up with thousands of laws that even the law makers themselves cannot keep up with and be arrested for breaking one.
    Perhaps, but they have. So it is what it is.
    That's a bit like saying if they didn't impose a salestax on everything I could afford a bottle of Bourbon
    every few weeks or so. But they did. It is what it is.

    The part many here have difficulty with is that like it or not, The Supremes have blessed
    state regulation, time and time again. Even without the specific words about regulations in Heller,
    they have on innumerable occasions simply decided to not hear appeals of convictions for gun-law
    violations. By doing nothing they endorsed the regulatory actions of the states.

    So, since we have regulations (like it or not) it is best that folks be apprised in some way of what
    those regulations are.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  8. #98
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    Even elected rulers will turn around and spank you.
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  9. #99
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Im beat to death with this. The constitution was put in place to give the people the right to resist and abolish government courts legislators etc etc if and when they become tyrannical to the point the peoples liberty is threatened. Thats the long and short of it and talking about modern day abuses as if they are done deals just because modern day tyrunts say they are is to ignore the principles this nation was founded on. With the blood of millions over the years.

    Just because the public HAS tolerated it for years does not mean they always will. The British had quite a shock in the past. Win lose or draw the Federals had an unpleasant surprise the nation still has not fully recovered from with the Civil War,

    To think history cant repeat itself is the beginning of living in a fantasy world. The powers that be do not have the muscle to take all citizens weapons by force. Not and have any country left to govern afterward if they can at all.

    This continual push that the people have to be regulated in some way in every facet of their life will turn out bad. Mandatory training registration confiscation etc may slip thru a few north eastern states. Bring it thru the rest of the two thirds of the country as some seem to want to do even here and feel every right to, is bad Juju I would rather not have to live through thank you. At least wait 30 yrs or something like that so I can be gone when the muskets get brought out please
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The citizenry must step up and be part of the problem solvers, and get out of the denial that paremeters cannot be legislatively placed on the 2A.
    "They can't!" "They can't!" "They can't!"
    And then they do. G10 nails this one. We tend to feed the Antis the ammunition they fire back at us.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  11. #101
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    And you are correct. But once again, fair or not, they are never going to disarm the police because of a few dummies like that. But, they are watching and recording every single civillian accident to use against you for future reference.
    The gun banners will never be satisfied with any set of anti-gun laws. If every gun owner in America took the full training offered to every policeman in their city, just like with the police there would still be gun safety incidents and gun related crime. It still wouldn't be enough. Their full agenda would still be on the table. Never let a crisis go to waste.

    If they pass a hi cap mag ban, I will still have access to them, but you wont. No, its not right, but that is the reality that we are facing.
    Don't be so sure of that. The dummies in New York banned the mags from the police too! Plus, we're getting down to a point of mass rejection of these laws. They aren't keeping guns away from criminals, and they won't be keeping them away from us either. They are going to lose the argument one way or the other.

    The citizenry must step up and be part of the problem solvers, and get out of the denial that paremeters cannot be legislatively placed on the 2A.
    It's not denial. The folks that believe these kinds of laws are going to stand up against the new legal landscape are in denial. Like I said before, these laws have never been tested against the Heller and McDonald rulings. The problem is that too many people believe we have to settle for our government ignoring our Constitution. The first thing you need to do to step up is to stop supporting the government in it's efforts to deny us our rights.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    I live in a state that does not require trianing to carry. When I see someone post a comment that trianing should be required I automatically make the assumption that they had zero experience with firearms before they started carrying. If a person has many years experience and good trianing by their parents and uncles and grandfathers and friends parents then why should they be required to attend trianing. The last class I attended (it was this month), was totally worthless, a waste of time and money. If a person does not know how to handle a firearm and they intend to handle a firearm they should act responsible and get so trianing. The trianing should not have to be conducted in a formal class setting in order to be valid trianing.
    Voice of reason!

  13. #103
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    Never underestimate good old fashioned peer pressure.


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  14. #104
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Perhaps, but they have. So it is what it is.
    That's a bit like saying if they didn't impose a salestax on everything I could afford a bottle of Bourbon
    every few weeks or so. But they did. It is what it is.

    The part many here have difficulty with is that like it or not, The Supremes have blessed
    state regulation, time and time again. Even without the specific words about regulations in Heller,















    they have on innumerable occasions simply decided to not hear appeals of convictions for gun-law
    violations. By doing nothing they endorsed the regulatory actions of the states.

    So, since we have regulations (like it or not) it is best that folks be apprised in some way of what
    those regulations are.
    I cant post just a part of a quote so forgive that.

    It is what it is? It was cold when I came in this evening. I built a fire and changed that so now its warm.

    The Supremes as their called have power as long as the people allow them to have power. Just like the Government. Its a basic principal of this nation. Before saying it is what it is now accept it or not reaches the point its NOT accepted which is going on to a uncomfortable degree now at state levels and someone builds a fire that wont be that hard to light to change it, this half on half off support of infringement needs to stop. Its not only wrong. Its dangerous and getting more dangerous as more and more acccept it it is what is regs come down from those that think they are entrenched so tight that nothing can stop them. That my friend is naieve and bluntly living in a fantasy land. Now im tired Im going to go talk about defending myself from just a murdering serial killer or something simple and easy like that. Jeez
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  15. #105
    RKM
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    I personally believe that one must be able to show proper safe handling of a firearm. As well as show some sort of competence with a firearm. However, I do NOT believe that a hardcore tactical training class is a must. While it's certainly not a bad idea, as well as training as regularly as you can, I just don't think people NEED to go through rigorous training. That should be an option that is encouraged. Like it currently is.

    In PA, there is nothing needed other than passing a background check, but I would be more than happy to show my competence with a firearm if I was required to do so. I do what I can at the range and dry fire practice at home. And I encourage my friends to do the same. Simple skills such as drawing from concealment, drawing while moving in any direction, shooting while moving in any direction, shooting from cover, shooting one handed, left and right, point shooting, reloads and malfunction drills are a minimum, which are things that can easily be learned.

    But on the other hand, I'm going to make a big assumption that probably leans on the correct side that says, a large portion of successful self defense shootings were done by a person with very little to no training. Training is a good thing and will give you a great advantage, but in my opinion, serious, hardcore training just isn't 100% necessary. Simple training on the safe handling of a firearm and learning to at least do the bare minimum is a must.

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