A question.

A question.

This is a discussion on A question. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm new here, and don't want to step on any toes, or anything of that nature, I just have a question... I see posts with ...

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Thread: A question.

  1. #1
    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    A question.

    I'm new here, and don't want to step on any toes, or anything of that nature, I just have a question... I see posts with "I know" or "I won't" or such when it concerns a confrontation with a BG. --IE: "If I bad guy breaks into the waffle house, I know I won't have time to do anything If I don't have my Phazer set on 'Liquify' and it's sitting in a spring loaded heat seeking holster"


    My point being, I have never been involved in any situation that would require a gun, fortunately, therefore, I DON'T know what is required, and since every situation is different, even if I were, it may not apply to next time. Of course, If you're going to carry, you might as well stack the deck in your favor, whatever that may be for you, a loaded .22 in a pocket, a $2,000 1911, a brick, whatever.


    So, here's my question, how many of you have ever needed to actually pull your gun out, and what did you learn, or remember from it?

    I'm sure this question has been asked before, so I apologize in advance if this is a once a week NOOB question, but I would like to get a sort of idea of how many of us on here have actually been in a confrontation vs. armchair quarterbacking and runnign scenarios in our heads. I know that's what I do, think about things, try to figure out what to do if "X" happens, but we all know, life is unpredictable. Just food for thought. Thanks, Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!


  2. #2
    9ve
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    Be Careful; Be Very Certain

    I've had to pull my gun one time. I learned at least five things:

    1. Avoidance is better than confrontation.
    2. Take cover whenever possible, and assess the situation as completely as possible.
    3. Before firing, be very certain that you have a clear, legitimate target.
    4. Unless you are a professional crime fighter or military warrior, only pull your gun when someone's life is clearly in danger.
    5. Things are not always as they seem, so keep a clear head, and be very aware of your surroundings during a perceived attack.

    Here's how it went down, the day I pulled my gun on two suspicious guys in our neighborhood. I was loading my trumpet case into my car when I spied a gray Ford Focus. It was rolling by, with two young men in it, right in front of our house at a very slow speed. Recent vandalism in the neighborhood gave cause for suspicion, so I stood behind the car door for cover, just in case.

    “In case of what?” I wondered. I imagined a robbery, like the one two years before in which I was fired upon by a lone gunman, right in front of our previous residence. Maybe it would just be a smashed car window, or worse, maybe a drive-by shooting. I became rigid and alert, watching the boys’ every move.

    “Not again,” I thought, “surely not this time!” I put my hand behind me. I was getting ready to grab my 9MM Smith and Wesson, which was tucked neatly inside my belt.

    Then it happened.

    The driver of the Ford Focus pulled out a large semi-automatic pistol. By this time he had rolled past my property and aimed his gun at my neighbor, who was standing in her front yard.

    In a split second, my mind raced back in time to my latest encounter with gunfire and to the street chases and shotgun blasts of the past quarter of a century. Would this be the day I would meet my maker? Not if I could help it. Don’t get me wrong, I was ready to go, if I had to, but I wasn’t quite prepared to by a one-way ticket! I was committed to helping my neighbor out of this predicament, whatever it took.

    I drew my weapon as quickly as possible and scrunched down behind my car door. I was sure the two young men couldn’t see me. I had a clear view of them over the hood of my Buick, though, and no danger of collateral damage. I was sure I could get off a good, solid head shot on the driver. His accomplice would be more difficult to defend against. I resigned myself to the notion that one of them might get away. I was already ‘locked and loaded,’ with one round in the chamber and seventeen in the magazine. This mental strategy session, which began with a very brief prayer, took place in fewer than three seconds. I took aim and prepared to squeeze the trigger before the gunman would have a chance to kill anyone.

    “No, no!” I heard from behind me in a muffled alto voice. It was my wife. I took my index finger out of the trigger guard as she waved me off. She was well aware of how many times I had been fired upon, and that I would not hesitate to put down a killer. I broke one of my "rules" of combat carry. I hesitated, but only slightly, long enough to save the life of one, or maybe two young men.

    Perplexed, I heard laughter coming from the Ford Focus, and from my neighbor. I stood up, and walked toward my wife with a blank stare on my face, keeping one eye on the action in the street. My wife explained that she knew those two young guys from her work at the high school just up the road from our home. She had worked in the counseling office for the past decade, and she came in contact with nearly every student at some time or another. Furthermore, my wife knew that at least one of these young men was a regular visitor at the neighbors’ home. He was driving a different car than he normally drove. Otherwise, I would have recognized him too.

    It turned out that they were just playing a practical joke. The gun wasn’t real. Even though it could have passed for a .45 automatic from a distance, it was only a squirt gun.

    Before I started carrying a handgun I had been shot at 10 time by three different attackers over the years. As a teenager, I was chased several times by bullies and thugs on foot and bicycle. As an adult I've been chased and threatened with guns and knives. I've had to talk and fight my way out of a number of situations in which a gun would have been a quick and lawful way for me to end a criminal attack on my life. For mostly religious reasons, I refused to take up arms during the first 47 years of my life. I finally got fed up.

    That happened in April of 2004, when I was robbed at gunpoint. Until then I was content (or stupid) enough to just keep on doing the same old "nothing" about defense training. I finally wised up. I carry a gun everywhere it's legal, including church.

    Now, if my life is threatened by a "clear target" I won't hesitate to pull the trigger, but it must be a CLEAR threat. In the example above, where it turned out to be a couple of stupid teenagers playing a joke, I'm glad I did hesitate, even though I know from experience that the bad guys will not hesitate to shoot at me.

    I hate the ambiguity that my story brings up, but it is real. I believe I did the right thing by pulling my gun, but I'm very glad my guardian angels (or those boys' guardian angels) were on duty that day.

  3. #3
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    9ve - a very salutary experience and thank heaven it went down the way it did. Of course certainly in these modern times, to be honest anyone fooling around as those kids did should realize the potential concequences.

    Had they been seen just maybe by an off duty LEO - he could have responded as he thought best - at the time - in an effort to save a potential victim - but with tragic results for the boys of course.

    The problem we all have is that need for very rapid assessment - if things are for real our thinking time may be measured in milliseconds - but too rash a decision could be a mistake also - no one probably will ever know until something happens. I pray none of us is put in a serious defensive situation but, train we must.

    Crexrun's actual question - no I have been fortunate not to be in a situation where a draw was needed. My worst was actually minor, where I was approached in a parking lot by two far from pleasant looking dudes. As I opened and got into my truck I did have hand very close to gun - more or less orange going on red. Nothing occurred glad to say.

    As for ''I know'' and ''I won't'' aspects - I'll be boring and once more say ''I'll play it as I see it'' - and hope to heck I get things right.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #4
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    I think your question is a good one, one that I've asked before. It seems to me as if you are justified in shooting only when in immediate and imminent life threatening danger. What I don't get is, under these circumstances there would be no time to pull a gun. A threat of a good ass kicking would give you time, but not the justification. A gun in the face gives you the justification, but no time to get armed.

    I guess you could run into a guy 30 feet away drawing a gun. Maybe someone with a knife more than 20 feet away, but I hear that even then he'll probably cover the ground before you can draw.

    99.9999999999% of the people carrying will probably never need their gun. Some of the remainder think they need it anytime a "banger" enters a gas station and decides not to rob it, likely since the person was armed and gave off a vibe to the bad guy.

    However, all of that being said, it's hard to argue with the logic of having the armed option whatever the scenario is. It's logical and irrefutable. You'll get your license and never need the weapon. Or you won't and someday, unlikely, wish you had it. I understand that unlikely possibility, though. I'm not licensed yet and may never carry even if I get licensed - who knows? Hopefully I'll never be in that "******, I wish I was armed" scenario.

    It's gambling with the same thin odds and the winnings are in fact losings. People go to Vegas all the time to play the odds; people who don't carry, like me, are playing the odds. Some people strike it rich; some people get killed who could have protected themselves, maybe.

    There's no answer to this quandry, but I guess being armed doesn't hurt, does it?

  5. #5
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    "I know" and "I won't" is internet slang for "I don't know" and "maybe, maybe not"

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    I have not drawn. I have been shot at, while on duty (EMT)- "interesting" is about the best description I have. As above- avoidance and awareness. Having had the interactions I have, it would have to be an extremely directed threat for me to feel it worth "getting involved". Running fast is so much better than working overtime to pay the lawyer.

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    I don't feel the need to go into detail, but I have learned a few things.

    First, no matter what you've seen, done, or trained to do... you don't know anything. No situation will be exactly like any other situation. You can make rules and follow them, but that doesn't mean they will work. The only exception is that I KNOW it is better to live than to die. Everything I do in a dangerous situation is geared toward that simple fact.

    There are things that are good to take into account. For example, in just about every situation I can come up with, it is better to be armed with a service caliber weapon with modern ammunition. But, there could be a case where your 22 or 32ACP is what you really need to have. I just don't know what would lead up to that. "Stepping off the X" and using cover seem to be things you would always want to do. But, a situation may dictate that you stand and deliver. Regardless, it all goes back to the one thing I do know- do what you have to do to continue breathing.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

  8. #8
    9ve
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    A PERSONAL OBSERVATION AS AN ARMED CITIZEN

    Since I've become armed, I am vastly and acutely more aware of my surroundings than I ever was before. My training and my study, as limited as they are, lead me to believe that an attitude of focus and awareness may lessen the likelihood that I will be attacked again. I hope that is true.

    Crooks like easy targets. That's what I was for many years. No more. When I walk from the car to the front porch, I look over my shoulder, and I stand facing the street as I unlock the front door to the house. Maybe that's paranoia, but I don't think so. Granted, I need to guard against seeing a burglar behind every bush. On the other hand, I do not intend to become sloppy and lazy again when it comes to personal protection and family safety.

    Thank you for your input. I am still in the early months of the learning curve, and I value the experience of all of you on this forum, especially current and retired professionals.

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
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    your question is a good one, but what else can people in this lifestyle do other than think through scenarios in case a situation occurs? I am not into PC langauge enough to eliminate the I knows and I wonts. I think those statements portray conviction in your beliefs. You have to KNOW that you could shoot someone if necessary, and you have to KNOW you could defend yours if necessary. and statments like I won't freeze or I won't delay are peoples way of affirming their beliefs and training. I do not think it is internet slang for ignorance.
    As for me, I have not had to pull my gun, only reveal it, in holster to make a BG in a parking lot decide to leave. It worked and I was happy. I was helping my wife load the two kids in the car. A scary time for anyone that has kids. She was loading my older daughter (4) into the car seat. and I was holding my son (1) on the weak side of my body. A man approached from across the parking lot from nowhere it seemed. He got with in a car length, when he started talking about needing a ride or money.....I turned to put my son away from him(against the car) and unzipped my vest as I was stating I could not help him. I said it three times with my strong hand out. At the third statement I pulled the vest back and revealed my firearm with the intention of pulling it. He did a quick about face and disappeared across a large parking lot, and into a truck that drove away.
    That's my story, and I know I did the right thing, and I won't hesitate to do it again.
    ----DOC-----

    --people ask why I carry, and I show them this picture. I think it says it all.--

    NRA Certified Instructor--many disciplines

  10. #10
    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    Great answers everyone, exactly what I was looking for. Many good points in all, and I think that a lot of these situations were handled well, and that just showing the gun had the desired effect, that's good to hear.

    On a sidenote, that is part of the reason (not the best one, mind you) that I don't feel TOO bad carrying a little .22 most of the time, because if the one in a million occurs to ME, I'm hoping that just having a gun, and my ability to run REALLY fast (better than I can shoot!) will be al I need to make the BG think twice.

    Of course, If I *Knew* I was going to be in a bad situation, I'd have a WWII flame thrower strapped to my back, and be sitting in an Abrahams Tank, but we dont' have that luxury. I will say I do feel slightly better when I have my Ruger 9mm on my side vs. the little Walther, but either will work just fine if all I have to do is present a weapon to avoid an altercation.


    This also confirmed my belief, not just about CCW, but about life in general, perhaps--The more you realize and learn, the more you realize and learn that you know very little. Playing it by ear is definitely the only thing we CAN do, and hope maybe 10% of what we practice is applicable.

    And as far as having to end someone's life? I grew up on a farm, you learn early that sometimes hard things have to be done, the family pet, a sick animal. I would feel absolutely no more remorse for shooting someone fatally if they were about to take someone ELSE'S life than I would killing a blackbird on a fencepost. Perhaps even less. Yes, they have families, friends, but, to put a probably blunt and possibly overly harsh point on it, bad people don't deserve the chance. If I ever come across a Mother and 2 kids being attacked at gunpoint, or someones getting kidnapped, what have you, I would only care about the life of the person I would try to protect, Call me Judge Dredd.

    Anyway, keep em' coming! Great answers everyone, and thanks again for confirming my thoughts. Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

  11. #11
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    9ve has alluded to it and again I will add - tho it may be boringly repetitive for many - situational awareness and that grey mulch between our ears are the best things we have and should keep us out of all but the most unavoidable of circumstances.

    I'll add too - again we mention it often - do NOT go to anywhere high risk if avoidable, even if armed. Certain categories of establishment and environment come complete with an inbuilt ''hassle factor'' - maybe enhanced by booze, drugs, or simply bad people. The possession of the gun is in no way IMO the passport to such places, just because you have the means to answer back.

    The older I get the less I am concerned about feeling cowardly - the only thing I have and wish to prove, is that I can be savvy enough to see trouble coming early and, stay the heck away from places where trouble is almost certainly on the menu!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  12. #12
    Member Array Crexrun's Avatar
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    well said. I've done that my whole life, and I am more aware of things now that I carry, and I'd much rather let the guys with badges do their jobs if needbe, and for me to sleep in my own bed that night instead of jail or a hospital, but if, IF, I'm ever in the situation, I'll do the best I can, try to shoot straight, and pray the good guy wins. But If I have the option, I'll run just as fast and far as these legs will take me! Crexrun
    Walther P22, Velocitors, on my side. Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 +Ps, bedside. Mossberg 500, full of steel shot behind the door. And a Princeton Tec Genesis 3 watt led and a Gerber Ridge knife! Don't steal MY Coors Light!

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    "I know" and "I won't" is internet slang for "I don't know" and "maybe, maybe not"
    Yes, but aren't self-assured absolutes like the one above also of questionable value?

    Is there NO ONE on the internet who actually is qualified to be saying what he means when he says, "I know" or "I won't"?

  14. #14
    9ve
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    Amen!

    When I was a kid, I used to ride my bike to "Freddy's Bike and Repair Shop" in a rough section of town. To get there, I chose to go through "Haughville," one of the worst gang territories in Indianapolis. I could have gone another way, but I was determined that I was an American, and nobody was gonna tell me where I could and couldn't go.

    As you may have guessed, the kids in "the projects" would throw rocks, bottles, bricks, and anything else they could get their hands on just because I was the wrong skin color. Several times I got chased, and once they almost got my bike away from me.

    You might think I would have taken a safer route home, but no -- not me. I would go right through "Haughville" again on the way home, just to prove a point. Then, the next time I wanted to go to "Freddy's," I'd do it all over again. The truth is -- I have lived most of my life that way, sort of daring people to cross me. That is probably why I've had so many run-ins with creeps and crooks. It isn't worth it. Not to me, anyway.

    Now I prefer the path less traveled.

  15. #15
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    I've "needed" a gun 4 times. Unfortunately I didn't have one handy at the time. I survived thanks more to luck and adrenaline than my uber-ninja skills.

    I've put my hand on my weapon several more times when I perceived that an attack was imminent. As those unsubs saw my body language and instantly headed in a different direction, someone could argue that I mis-perceived the situations.

    One friend of mine was nearly assassinated on the street in front of his house... no, not robbery. Another had an deranged ex-GF unload a S&W at him at his church.

    The most common responses of people to my stories, and of other people's stories, is that we misinterpreted, exaggerate the situation, "started it", or are just plain liars.

    Running from an attack has a lot of merit, but as age catches up with you, as you get arthritis, or injuries to knees or hips.... not so reliable. I have knee troubles and I could be taken down by a herd of squirrels. (don't get me started about squirrels)

    Even if you are young, a good set of ambushers can come up on you from all sides. (been there)

    Absolutely, be smart. Avoid hostile people. Avoid places known for trouble. Avoid bars, don't go out late at night when all sorts of riff raff are skulking about. Will this ensure your safety?

    Nope.

    Sometimes some stranger will initiate contact, "interviewing" you for the job of victim. This is "bumping" much as a shark does before he goes for a bite. At a gas station or in a parking lot, is there ANY legitimate reason for some one you don't know to start walking with you, talking with you etc? You can't just draw down on any panhandler, but you can express your alarm and demand they get back. Any reasonable person who intends no harm will be taken aback, possibly offended, but I doubt someone who ADVANCES when you freak on them like has innocent intentions. We are so conditioned by society to deny the alarm system in our heads, and let potential threats get inside our personal space. Who says you have to be friendly to strangers who invade your space?

    Does some one divert his course of walking and head for you, and smile like you are just his best buddy? Does someone a distance away watch you intensely, and makes sure to move parallel to you? If you are in the open, check the opposite side, and behind for another one. If two or more stangers are in cahoots, you'll see it in their body language.

    Situational Awareness may only give you seconds of alert before someone opens up an attack. Many attacks never have a single WORD exchanged before the fight is on.

    If you've never personally been attacked by someone seriously trying to kill you, and It seems you have not, your brain will be WAY behind the curve if this should ever happen. Please take some serious classes so you have a certain familiarity with the tactics which human predators employ.

    From your post, you are still trying to justify your preparations to the "nice guy" part of your mind.
    The danger is that you'll go on, possibly for years, with no adverse incidents to substantiate your reasonable precautions, then you'll revert to condition white, get lazy, not carry your weapon, leave it in the car, etc.... and then you will have THE DAY.

    Be careful.

    --Travis--

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