Reciprocity glitch for ccw within 1000' of school grounds with permit
This is a discussion on Reciprocity glitch for ccw within 1000' of school grounds with permit within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Guys I'd like to get some opinions regarding the Gun-Free School Zones Act and ccw in a reciprocal state.
The Gun-Free School Zones Act (US ...
October 27th, 2006 12:34 AM
Reciprocity glitch for ccw within 1000' of school grounds with permit
Guys I'd like to get some opinions regarding the Gun-Free School Zones Act and ccw in a reciprocal state.
The Gun-Free School Zones Act (US Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 922, q 2) states:
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(See US Code Link for complete section of this law.)
Note that this section specifically allows a person holding a ccw permit from the state in which the school zone is located to be exempted from this federal law. That's all well and good, and I believe it was the intention of the drafters of this law to exempt a person who was legally carrying from this law. However, this specifically allows for exemption based only on being a person who "is licensed . . . by the State in which the school zone is located", not by a person who has a license to carry that is merely RECOGNIZED by the State in question.
This question was posed to the BATF by a letter posted on PDO that confirms their stance on the issue as being only exempted for those who hold a license actually issued by the state in question.
I know that this law was (in its original form) was found to be unconstitutional in 1995, but Congress added the "interstate or foreign commerce" lines to wiggle out of that problem. See US v. Lopez if you want more details on that issue.
Regardless, the law stands in its current form (as quoted above) and creates a real issue for those of us who rely on states like FL or UT for example to grant us the right to carry in many other states. While many states might recognize our "out-of-state" permit, it would seem that we would technically be in violation of US Code by simply driving by a school in other states.
Am I missing something here? Or is this code the thing that's actually "missing something" - specifically addressing the recognition of "out-of-state" permits?
That's actually why I got some of the non-resident permits for my neighboring states that I frequent even though I already had recognition by these states. My WV permit grants me right to carry in VA, but I got their permit anyway for this reason. Same with my NH granting rights for PA, but I hold their permit as well.
Oh yeah, almost forgot to take a moment to mention just how well this law's been working lately. The Bad Guys take one look at those "Gun Free School Zone" signs and say to themselves "aw . . . shucks! Guess I'll just havta go back home now!" Riiiiiiiiight!
Looking forward to comments on this one!
Thanks for the help,
Edit: Wouldn't this also cause a problem in VT, where no one holds a permit issued by VT that would exempt them from the school zone code?
Last edited by ccWV; October 27th, 2006 at 06:53 AM.
Reason: One last thought
The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, . . . that it is their RIGHT AND DUTY TO BE AT ALL TIMES ARMED . . . Thomas Jefferson (June 5, 1824)
October 27th, 2006 06:42 AM
Personally , I think the odds of being prosecuted under Federal Law
for carrying legally ( with a Permit) are Infinitesmal.
The fact that a State recognizes your license by Reciprocity
presumes that that State legally Authorizes you to carry.
The BATF does not determine what is legal.
BTW ,I drive past the entrance to our local High School EVERY time I
go to my local club range. ( they border each other , and yes I am
-SIG , it's What's for Dinner-
know your rights!http://www.handgunlaw.us
"If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
October 27th, 2006 08:34 AM
The crazy uncle upstairs...
There exist in this country certain laws that are so incredibly stupid that nobody tries to enforce them. These laws are universally ignored by unspoken agreement of all concerned.
But the legislators who created these laws are afraid to repeal them, through political correctness and not wanting to admit their past mistakes in creating the laws.
It is a little like having a crazy uncle who lives in the upstairs room. We all ignore him and pretend he is not there.
October 27th, 2006 08:36 AM
As a carry permit holder in MN you can park your car and unload your gun in the parking lot to secure it. If your walking on the street or sidewalk you are covered. Going into the school would require a written approval from the principle or super.
So it depends on your state law.
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.
October 27th, 2006 11:34 AM
Another rant about stupid Federal officials...
I can't resist taking another shot at the stupidity of this law. Note that Congress added the quote above regarding "interstate commerce" to solve their jurisdictional problem - normally the Federal government would not have lawmaking authority in the area of school gun laws. But the Constitution gives them authority to regulate interstate commerce.
Originally Posted by ccWV
So the lame excuse the Congress uses to intrude themselves in this area is the gun itself, and whether it was manufactured in one state and shipped to another state for sale. So under this law, a person near a Connecticut school carrying a Colt manufactured in Hartford is not a felon, but if he is carrying a Smith and Wesson manufactured in Springfield, Massachusetts, he is a felon.
How can these supposedly smart people we elect and send to Washington come up with this stuff?
October 27th, 2006 02:47 PM
It seems pretty clear to me. If you are licensed by the state to carry, you are not breaking federal law. If you are not licensed by the state in which you are carrying, you are breaking federal law.
There really is no way to argue it otherwise unless, on appeal, you challenge the legislative intent of the law, which is a LONG, LONG row to hoe.
Now, I also agree that the likelihood of a CCW licensee in a recip state being prosecuted for this is very small unless that person is also breaking other laws (i.e. shooting the school up, deal drugs, etc.), in which case, if the US attorney wants, he can try the (now) defendant on it.
Simply being a recip state is not enough. You have to be LICENSED by the state you are carrying in.
Of course, a lot of states call schools no gun zones anyway, so, for instance, in Michigan you would be breaking state AND federal law even if you were licensed in a recip state that allow carry at their schools.
October 27th, 2006 02:52 PM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
To be very boring on this - now my step kids have both finished with school - I stay the heck away from schools!!
That said - each and every time I pass one of the three local schools driving R 56 - I have to be within 1,000' of each - same in town if I drive to library and pass that big school.
Re the reciprocity deal tho - well, I am out of state very little these days and so would not be likely to be concerned on it - instinctively I think I would be on the lookout for any schools!!!
As AKsrule says too - I think the odds of being prosecuted are very slim if considering the inadvertent failure to fully comply to the n'th degree.
We all know of course, the determined BG will easily flout all this almost anywhere.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."http://www.rkba-2a.com/
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
October 27th, 2006 06:53 PM
to really think or worry about...
Continue on 'as you were'...
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
October 28th, 2006 03:01 AM
There are many laws on the books we may break without knowing but are never arrested for but may be charged with if we break a major one such as robery or murder. Some laws have been there for over a hundred years but really no longer apply and violations of such laws are ignored unless the need something to hold you on untill you can be charged with a larger crime. Don't worry about it unless you like calling attention to yourself by violating other laws.
October 28th, 2006 08:59 AM
From what I understand, the feds adopted the law, but left it up to individual states to adopt. Here in South Dakota, the 1,000' rule is not in effect. The only zone law around schools is the drug-free one.
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