Mandatory training advocates, Here's your bill. No card, no gun.

Mandatory training advocates, Here's your bill. No card, no gun.

This is a discussion on Mandatory training advocates, Here's your bill. No card, no gun. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, we were just finishing up our second recent thread on mandatory training. We got a lot of support here for the idea that the ...

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Thread: Mandatory training advocates, Here's your bill. No card, no gun.

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    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Mandatory training advocates, Here's your bill. No card, no gun.

    So, we were just finishing up our second recent thread on mandatory training. We got a lot of support here for the idea that the government can mandate training as a prerequisite for the 2nd Amendment. So, now it's time to vote on the bill, and thanks to our anti-gun crusaders in New Jersey, we have it. No surprise that it comes to us with a whole package of other bills.

    You know the usual:

    a ban of most rifle ammunition,
    suspension of 2nd Amendment rights if you don't notify the government you no longer have your gun
    10 round magazine limit
    large swaths of land where 2A no longer applies at all
    ban of Internet and catalog sales of ammo
    ban on .50cal rifles and rifled shotguns
    no 2A rights for anyone selected by secret committee to be on TSA watchlist
    mandatory reporting of all ammunition purchases
    nurses, social workers, and marriage counselors can mandate firearm seizures with no due process
    and more

    It's good to know our resident mandatory training advocates have a lot of company in legislatures around the country. However let's continue to pretend that mandatory training isn't just getting a bad rap because of all this bad company, and let's look at this one bill on it's own merits.

    Now, I know we have a lot of folks here that have tried to pretend this is only for public carry and CHL more specifically, but who are we kidding? Why only mandate training for CHL holders? Did I hear crickets? Yes, I sure did. No one would touch that question with a ten foot pole, but fortunately, the anti-gun crusaders in New Jersey aren't so shy. They at least have the moral courage of their convictions to say what needs to be said about mandatory training. Every gun owner needs training, regardless of whether the gun ever sees the light of day from public carry. Who can really argue with that?

    So, here's the bill you've all been waiting for:


    New Jersey A3510

    SYNOPSIS

    Requires proof of firearms safety training as a condition for issuance of firearms purchaser ID cards and permits to purchase handguns.


    Uh oh! Did I mention firearms purchaser ID cards? Oh yeah, since no one would ever admit they advocated training for all firearm owners, we never got to go there. Eeeh gads. Did you guys advocate that? Well, we do have to verify that the training has been completed, and in that you've advocated the government have the power to put common sense prerequisites on the 2A, without even an amendment to the constitution, surely you're not surprised, but look on the bright side. Every gun owner needs training. It's a matter of public safety, and if this saves even one life, surely it will all be worthwhile. Now, let me just summarize:

    STATEMENT

    This bill would require that all applicants for firearms purchaser identification cards and permits to purchase a handgun successfully complete a firearms safety class or course.

    Under the provisions of the bill, applicants for firearms purchaser identification cards and permits to purchase a handgun would be required to present evidence that they have successfully completed a firearms safety class or course approved by the Superintendent of State Police as a condition for being issued their card or permit. The class or course may be offered by the National Rifle Association, a State or local law enforcement agency, junior college, college, university firearms training school, or any other entity approved by the superintendent. The superintendent is to determine the form of the evidence and the manner in which it is to be presented by the applicant. Applicants who have received firearms training through law enforcement or military service may substitute that experience for the required class or course training.

    And there you have it. Mandatory safety training for all gun owners. Surely New Jersey, and even Lyndon B Johnson's Model City Camden, will be all the safer place. So now while I still have your attention, let's have a big round of applause for all our resident supporters of mandatory training. We know they're all calling their state legislators to advocate for this model bill. For all the rest of us, here's one more thread to voice your opinion.

    Oh, and by the way, here are just a few other prerequisites you'll have to meet to get your card. You know, no card, no gun.

    An Act concerning certain firearms permits and identification cards, and amending N.J.S.2C:58-3.



    Be It Enacted by the Senate and General Assembly of the State of New Jersey:



    1. N.J.S.2C:58-3 is amended to read as follows:

    2C:58-3. a. Permit to purchase a handgun. No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of, nor receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun as provided by this section.

    b. Firearms purchaser identification card. No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of nor receive, purchase or otherwise acquire an antique cannon or a rifle or shotgun, other than an antique rifle or shotgun, unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, and first exhibits said card to the seller, donor, transferor or assignor, and unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder signs a written certification, on a form prescribed by the superintendent, which shall indicate that he presently complies with the requirements of subsection c. of this section and shall contain his name, address and firearms purchaser identification card number or dealer's registration number. The said certification shall be retained by the seller, as provided in paragraph (4) of subsection a. of N.J.S.2C:58-2, or, in the case of a person who is not a dealer, it may be filed with the chief of police of the municipality in which he resides or with the superintendent.

    c. Who may obtain. No person of good character and good repute in the community in which he lives, and who is not subject to any of the disabilities set forth in this section or other sections of this chapter, shall be denied a permit to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card, except as hereinafter set forth. No handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card shall be issued:

    (1) To any person who has been convicted of any crime, or a disorderly persons offense involving an act of domestic violence as defined in section 3 of P.L.1991, c.261 (C.2C:25-19), whether or not armed with or possessing a weapon at the time of such offense;

    (2) To any drug dependent person as defined in section 2 of P.L.1970, c.226 (C.24:21-2), to any person who is confined for a mental disorder to a hospital, mental institution or sanitarium, or to any person who is presently an habitual drunkard;

    (3) To any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for him to handle firearms, to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that he is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that would interfere with or handicap him in the handling of firearms; to any person who knowingly falsifies any information on the application form for a handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card;

    (4) To any person under the age of 18 years for a firearms purchaser identification card and to any person under the age of 21 years for a permit to purchase a handgun;

    (5) To any person where the issuance would not be in the interest of the public health, safety or welfare;

    (6) To any person who is subject to a restraining order issued pursuant to the "Prevention of Domestic Violence Act of 1991," P.L.1991, c.261 (C.2C:25-17 et seq.) prohibiting the person from possessing any firearm;

    (7) To any person who as a juvenile was adjudicated delinquent for an offense which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a crime and the offense involved the unlawful use or possession of a weapon, explosive or destructive device or is enumerated in subsection d. of section 2 of P.L.1997, c.117 (C.2C:43-7.2); or

    (8) To any person whose firearm is seized pursuant to the "Prevention of Domestic Violence Act of 1991," P.L.1991, c.261 (C.2C:25-17 et seq.) and whose firearm has not been returned.

    On and after the effective date of P.L. , c. (C. ) (pending before the Legislature as this bill), no handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card shall be issued unless the applicant presents evidence of successfully completing a firearms safety class or course of a type approved by the superintendent or has received such training through law enforcement or military service. The course or class may be offered by the National Rifle Association, a State or local law enforcement agency, junior college, college, university, firearms training school, or any other entity approved by the superintendent. The superintendent shall prescribe the manner and form of the evidence of qualification an applicant is required to present pursuant to this paragraph.

    d. Issuance. The chief of police of an organized full-time police department of the municipality where the applicant resides or the superintendent, in all other cases, shall upon application, issue to any person qualified under the provisions of subsection c. of this section a permit to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card.

    Any person aggrieved by the denial of a permit or identification card may request a hearing in the Superior Court of the county in which he resides if he is a resident of New Jersey or in the Superior Court of the county in which his application was filed if he is a nonresident. The request for a hearing shall be made in writing within 30 days of the denial of the application for a permit or identification card. The applicant shall serve a copy of his request for a hearing upon the chief of police of the municipality in which he resides, if he is a resident of New Jersey, and upon the superintendent in all cases. The hearing shall be held and a record made thereof within 30 days of the receipt of the application for such hearing by the judge of the Superior Court. No formal pleading and no filing fee shall be required as a preliminary to such hearing. Appeals from the results of such hearing shall be in accordance with law.

    e. Applications. Applications for permits to purchase a handgun and for firearms purchaser identification cards shall be in the form prescribed by the superintendent and shall set forth the name, residence, place of business, age, date of birth, occupation, sex and physical description, including distinguishing physical characteristics, if any, of the applicant, and shall state whether the applicant is a citizen, whether he is an alcoholic, habitual drunkard, drug dependent person as defined in section 2 of P.L.1970, c.226 (C.24:21-2), whether he has ever been confined or committed to a mental institution or hospital for treatment or observation of a mental or psychiatric condition on a temporary, interim or permanent basis, giving the name and location of the institution or hospital and the dates of such confinement or commitment, whether he has been attended, treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist or at any hospital or mental institution on an inpatient or outpatient basis for any mental or psychiatric condition, giving the name and location of the doctor, psychiatrist, hospital or institution and the dates of such occurrence, whether he presently or ever has been a member of any organization which advocates or approves the commission of acts of force and violence to overthrow the Government of the United States or of this State, or which seeks to deny others their rights under the Constitution of either the United States or the State of New Jersey, whether he has ever been convicted of a crime or disorderly persons offense, whether the person is subject to a restraining order issued pursuant to the "Prevention of Domestic Violence Act of 1991," P.L.1991, c.261 (C.2C:25-17 et seq.) prohibiting the person from possessing any firearm, and such other information as the superintendent shall deem necessary for the proper enforcement of this chapter. For the purpose of complying with this subsection, the applicant shall waive any statutory or other right of confidentiality relating to institutional confinement. The application shall be signed by the applicant and shall contain as references the names and addresses of two reputable citizens personally acquainted with him.

    Application blanks shall be obtainable from the superintendent, from any other officer authorized to grant such permit or identification card, and from licensed retail dealers.

    The chief police officer or the superintendent shall obtain the fingerprints of the applicant and shall have them compared with any and all records of fingerprints in the municipality and county in which the applicant resides and also the records of the State Bureau of Identification and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, provided that an applicant for a handgun purchase permit who possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, or who has previously obtained a handgun purchase permit from the same licensing authority for which he was previously fingerprinted, and who provides other reasonably satisfactory proof of his identity, need not be fingerprinted again; however, the chief police officer or the superintendent shall proceed to investigate the application to determine whether or not the applicant has become subject to any of the disabilities set forth in this chapter.

    f. Granting of permit or identification card; fee; term; renewal; revocation. The application for the permit to purchase a handgun together with a fee of $2, or the application for the firearms purchaser identification card together with a fee of $5, shall be delivered or forwarded to the licensing authority who shall investigate the same and, unless good cause for the denial thereof appears, shall grant the permit or the identification card, or both, if application has been made therefor, within 30 days from the date of receipt of the application for residents of this State and within 45 days for nonresident applicants. A permit to purchase a handgun shall be valid for a period of 90 days from the date of issuance and may be renewed by the issuing authority for good cause for an additional 90 days. A firearms purchaser identification card shall be valid until such time as the holder becomes subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of this section, whereupon the card shall be void and shall be returned within five days by the holder to the superintendent, who shall then advise the licensing authority. Failure of the holder to return the firearms purchaser identification card to the superintendent within the said five days shall be an offense under subsection a. of N.J.S.2C:39-10. Any firearms purchaser identification card may be revoked by the Superior Court of the county wherein the card was issued, after hearing upon notice, upon a finding that the holder thereof no longer qualifies for the issuance of such permit. The county prosecutor of any county, the chief police officer of any municipality or any citizen may apply to such court at any time for the revocation of such card.

    There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

    g. Disposition of fees. All fees for permits shall be paid to the State Treasury if the permit is issued by the superintendent, to the municipality if issued by the chief of police, and to the county treasurer if issued by the judge of the Superior Court.

    h. Form of permit; quadruplicate; disposition of copies. The permit shall be in the form prescribed by the superintendent and shall be issued to the applicant in quadruplicate. Prior to the time he receives the handgun from the seller, the applicant shall deliver to the seller the permit in quadruplicate and the seller shall complete all of the information required on the form. Within five days of the date of the sale, the seller shall forward the original copy to the superintendent and the second copy to the chief of police of the municipality in which the purchaser resides, except that in a municipality having no chief of police, such copy shall be forwarded to the superintendent. The third copy shall then be returned to the purchaser with the pistol or revolver and the fourth copy shall be kept by the seller as a permanent record.

    i. Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchased within any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to:

    (1) a federal, State or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties;

    (2) a collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives;

    (3) transfers of handguns among licensed retail dealers, registered wholesale dealers and registered manufacturers

    (4) transfers of handguns from any person to a licensed retail dealer or a registered wholesale dealer or registered manufacturer.

    (5) any transaction where the person has purchased a handgun from a licensed retail dealer and has returned that handgun to the dealer in exchange for another handgun within 30 days of the original transaction, provided the retail dealer reports the exchange transaction to the superintendent; or

    (6) any transaction where the superintendent issues an exemption from the prohibition in this subsection pursuant to the provisions of section 4 of P.L.2009, c.186 (C.2C:58-3.4).

    The provisions of this subsection shall not be construed to afford or authorize any other exemption from the regulatory provisions governing firearms set forth in chapter 39 and chapter 58 of Title 2C of the New Jersey Statutes;

    A person shall not be restricted as to the number of rifles or shotguns he may purchase, provided he possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card and provided further that he signs the certification required in subsection b. of this section for each transaction.

    j. Firearms passing to heirs or legatees. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section concerning the transfer, receipt or acquisition of a firearm, a permit to purchase or a firearms purchaser identification card shall not be required for the passing of a firearm upon the death of an owner thereof to his heir or legatee, whether the same be by testamentary bequest or by the laws of intestacy. The person who shall so receive, or acquire said firearm shall, however, be subject to all other provisions of this chapter. If the heir or legatee of such firearm does not qualify to possess or carry it, he may retain ownership of the firearm for the purpose of sale for a period not exceeding 180 days, or for such further limited period as may be approved by the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality in which the heir or legatee resides or the superintendent, provided that such firearm is in the custody of the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality or the superintendent during such period.

    k. Sawed-off shotguns. Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize the purchase or possession of any sawed-off shotgun.

    l. Nothing in this section and in N.J.S.2C:58-2 shall apply to the sale or purchase of a visual distress signalling device approved by the United States Coast Guard, solely for possession on a private or commercial aircraft or any boat; provided, however, that no person under the age of 18 years shall purchase nor shall any person sell to a person under the age of 18 years such a visual distress signalling device.

    (cf: P.L.2009, c.186, s.2)



    2. This act shall take effect on the first day of the third month following enactment, but the Superintendent of State Police may take such anticipatory administrative action in advance as shall be necessary for the implementation of the act.


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    Not expecting a lot of reads, are you.
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    In before Ogre and his moronic gun control rantings.


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    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    Mandatory training advocates, Here's your bill. No card, no gun.

    What a train wreck. Classes from NRA instructors ... I would assume the criteria would have to be approved by the state. I can see a long delays happening.

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    Member Array BelaOkmyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happypuppy View Post
    What a train wreck. Classes from NRA instructors ... I would assume the criteria would have to be approved by the state. I can see a long delays happening.
    Nothing wrong with taking a class from an NRA instructor. The only problem is the people who write these bills don't really want you to take the class, they want you to not have a gun.

    Instead of putting pressure on Republicans to eschew all testing and background checks, we should be writing our own bill- where yes, you take a safety course, you get your background check, and then they SHALL ISSUE a permit. This argument cannot lose. An argument where you arm the untrained and people who have not been screened, cannot win.
    sdprof and sensei2 like this.

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    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaOkmyx View Post
    Nothing wrong with taking a class from an NRA instructor. The only problem is the people who write these bills don't really want you to take the class, they want you to not have a gun.

    Instead of putting pressure on Republicans to eschew all testing and background checks, we should be writing our own bill- where yes, you take a safety course, you get your background check, and then they SHALL ISSUE a permit. This argument cannot lose. An argument where you arm the untrained and people who have not been screened, cannot win.
    We aren't arming anyone. I don't want a background check. I don't want a training course, a gun buyer's permit, or any other prerequisite. What I want is a bill that mandates training for these legislators. They apparently need to be taught what the term of art "shall not be infringed" means. It's just a simple little class. Surely that's not asking too much.
    nontechguy, msgt/ret and jrclen like this.

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    Senior Member Array sdprof's Avatar
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    When I'm considering any technical books, like textbooks, one of my first quick checks is how big is the index. Books with small, skimpy indexes get passed over right away.

    I apply a similar judgement to gun related bills. The longer the text of the bill, the worse a bill it is. It might be a bill doing a good thing, like the current CC bill in Illinois, but by the length and complexity it's going to have too many limitations, exclusions and hoops to jump through. When it comes to bills that seek to further INFRINGE, then the length really makes it bad.

    That bill above reeks worse than cattle feedlot on a hot summer day.

    Sending from South Dakota, where our gun laws are few, short and understandable.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaOkmyx View Post
    Nothing wrong with taking a class from an NRA instructor. The only problem is the people who write these bills don't really want you to take the class, they want you to not have a gun.

    Instead of putting pressure on Republicans to eschew all testing and background checks, we should be writing our own bill- where yes, you take a safety course, you get your background check, and then they SHALL ISSUE a permit. This argument cannot lose. An argument where you arm the untrained and people who have not been screened, cannot win.
    The Brady Bunch could not have said it better.
    multistage and msgt/ret like this.
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    Marsha, we've been outed!
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    How do they write a bill which mandates that a specific class must be passed without first writing and approving the curriculum and minimum standards for the class which they are going to mandate?

    What if the minimum standards for passing the class requires that all enrollees must amputate both of their index fingers?

    How can these politicians vote on a bill which mandates that citizens must participate in something that doesn't exist?
    Aceoky, Ogre and DLeeHarley1 like this.
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    VIP Member Array Aceoky's Avatar
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    Just check out the "mental health" bill they're pushing for NJ if you think this is bad enough

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    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    How do they write a bill which mandates that a specific class must be passed without first writing and approving the curriculum and minimum standards for the class which they are going to mandate?

    What if the minimum standards for passing the class requires that all enrollees must amputate both of their index fingers?

    How can these politicians vote on a bill which mandates that citizens must participate in something that doesn't exist?
    How can they write a bill that puts a prerequisite on the 2A without first even proposing an amendment to the Constitution that says "shall not infringe?"

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    I'll be traveling to NJ soon. Before I speak or communicate in any way while I'm there I'd better make sure there is no formal training required for me to exercise my first amendment rights as well.

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    My point in opening this thread was not to re-hash the merits or misdeeds of mandatory training from scratch. I wanted to emphasize the card in the no card no gun analogy. In this bill, the mandatory training crowd got exactly what they wanted. It's a bill that on it's face mandates training. It mandates the training for every gun owner, not just CHL, but who can argue with that? It's just a safety class. Surely everyone can agree that given the responsibility, a safety class can't hurt. Our friends get everything they wanted in this bill, only, for some reason, the training looks like more of an after-thought. It's mentioned in the title, and just a few little sentences at the end.

    Like I kept saying our mandatory training friends are all so willing to give the government the power to restrict our 2A right "under such regulations as the legislature may prescribe." That's all the NJ legislature is trying to do here. Surely if they have the power to mandate training, they have a compelling interest to ensure that training has been completed. Surely they have the power to mandate the card to demonstrate the training. If there's a card, then surely the government can regulate the application process, terms and conditions. Oh, and my goodness them are some nifty terms and conditions huh? It's just a simple undefined safety class, rumored to be just 30 minutes. Surely that's true. Who can object to that? That plus that little card thingy.

    Plus, once we have the card, isn't it a neat by product that the government now has a complete list of every gun owner and every firearm purchase? Who knew that our friends were advocating one of the top ten items on every gun banner's dream list? Because of that, this may be the most dangerous bill out of the twenty. But hey, if even one life is saved, it's got to be worthwhile right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaOkmyx View Post
    Nothing wrong with taking a class from an NRA instructor. The only problem is the people who write these bills don't really want you to take the class, they want you to not have a gun.

    Instead of putting pressure on Republicans to eschew all testing and background checks, we should be writing our own bill- where yes, you take a safety course, you get your background check, and then they SHALL ISSUE a permit. This argument cannot lose. An argument where you arm the untrained and people who have not been screened, cannot win.
    I'm not arming anybody, and find no solace in mandatory classes from an NRA instructor, since I know what is required to become one.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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