My Research Takes Off
This is a discussion on My Research Takes Off within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello again CombatCarry readers. For those of you who may have missed it, I have decided it's time to start some sort of effort, however ...
November 4th, 2006 01:02 PM
My Research Takes Off
Hello again CombatCarry readers. For those of you who may have missed it, I have decided it's time to start some sort of effort, however humble, towards allowing CCW permit holders in schools.
I have determined thus far my first step is gathering information. I must understand the problems I wish to address with such advocacy.
No doubt some will say "Crazy people are murdering students and no one can do anything about it, what else is there to understand?"
While I agree, I don't think I can make an argument which addresses all concerns that way. I must be slow and methodical in my thinking, and all encompassing.
I feel the first point I must make is that while schools are for the most part safe, we have to realize the facts tell us that there are things happening which CCW efforts could help deter.
It's really hard to talk about or address the subject because so much of the information out there is newspaper sensationalism over truly atrocious and infamous incidents. That's not what I need, I need an objective factual study of what's really going on in schools that mandates CCW.
To that end I have found this report.
The bold emphasis is mine, they explain the kind of information I am looking for better than I can.
This report is a lot of reading. There's a lot of information in here. However I do not wish to base my entire research on a single document, no matter how impressive it seems to be.
For parents, school staff, and policymakers to address school crime effectively, they must possess an accurate understanding of the extent and nature of the problem. However, it is difficult to gauge the scope of crime and violence in schools without collecting data, given the large amount of attention devoted to isolated incidents of extreme school violence.
Ensuring safer schools requires establishing good indicators of the current state of school crime and safety across the nation and periodically monitoring and updating these indicators. This is the aim of Indicators of School Crime and Safety.
Any thoughts as to where I might find more of such information?
November 4th, 2006 01:28 PM
I applaud your effort. Since you're serious, you will need more than "if this teacher or these parents or those administrators had their guns that day, the BG would be dead and not __ children/teachers."
I cannot figure out why more is necessary, but I know that it is.
Is there currently a State or two that allows teachers with CCW's to carry? I think so, but I also think as a condition of their continued representation by their "union" they can't carry....
November 4th, 2006 02:25 PM
That is exactly how I feel. I'm not really ready to go out there with this yet, because I know it's going to be an uphill fight. I need lots of "ammunition". I need to argue it factually with some sort of evidence in addition to arguing it philosophically.
Asimov once wrote "You can prove anything you want to with a chain of pure Reason." Researching a few facts seems to be in order.
The only state I am aware of at this time which allows for the practice, and where it gets attention, is Utah. That's going to me one of my next subjects to look at, is the legality of it.
In Texas they'd have to change one line of the Penal Code. Less than 15 words would make it possible.
If I can ever develop a cohesive platform, I plan on seeing if I can get someone to edit it, and then getting a copy of it to anyone in office and anyone who might be able to help even if all they can offer is "Good luck with that!"
November 4th, 2006 04:05 PM
Having just moved here to Tennessee from Mobile Alabama a little over a year ago, I can tell you one thing I miss about Alabama is that, while not promoted, it was legal for us to CCW into our childs school. Now, a lot of people will say that is not true but you must read the law.
The law stated, and I am paraphrasing here, carrying or weapons on school property was against the law unless the person carrying the weapon had no ill intent.
In other words, it was legal unless you were there to harm someone. Just carrying a gun onto school property for protection was OK.
I saw this verified at least 2 or 3 times in the 12 years I lived there. Someone carried a gun onto school property, someone spotted it and called the cops. Cops arrest the guy and then charges are dropped and he's let go when it is determinted that he had no ill intent when he carried the gun into the school.
I don't know if that helps with your research but it might be something to look into and be able to point to in your information. Alabama school are pretty safe and yet people with CCW permits can carry into them.
Good luck with your research and you case for legal ccw in schools. I think it is an idea whose time has come, big time.
November 4th, 2006 04:47 PM
imho the biggest threat to having CCW in schools is gonna be the anti-gun unions
US Paratroopers give the enemy maxnimum opportunity to give his life for his country
November 4th, 2006 04:59 PM
Maybe as a start, you could approach the CCW in schools issue from the perspective of allowing CCW on public and private university campuses. Considering that all the students at those institutions are adults, CCW prohibitions make little sense (if any CCW prohibitions makes sense at all).
November 4th, 2006 09:19 PM
Try places like the FBI website. They have some information there like the Uniform Crime Report, etc. Might be able to find something there.
Things like this may be what you are looking for - http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/schoolviolence.pdf
<a target="_top" href="http://www.cybernations.net/default.asp?Referrer=TonyW"><img src="http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd188/18932471/imgad2-1.png" border="0"></a>
November 5th, 2006 01:55 AM
Washington allows concealed carry "while picking up or dropping off a student" -- usually interpreted to mean you may carry in the car onto school property, but if you get out of the car and go into a building, you have to leave the gun locked in the car.
Oregon outright allows CCW in schools.
I think you'll have a hard time using Oregon as evidence that CCW in schools makes for safer schools, however. There have been several high-profile shootings there over the past several years. I doubt their schools are any more dangerous just because they allow CCW, but I suspect you'll have a hard time finding statistical information to support your thesis that CCW would make the schools actually safer.
November 5th, 2006 02:11 AM
I think, in order for it to work and protect students, you would almost have to REQUIRE it.... and train teachers to use them and permit them. An armed Faculty is a feared Faculty sort of approach. A plan and a trained course of action. Far fetched? At this point perhaps.... but I would love to see the day when our faculty was prepared to deal with something. We already have Resource officers in most of our schools that could organize and train this "Educated Force".
I think at any of these schools were incidents have occured but yet carry was allowed that there is no evidence that carry was occuring... nor was it organized to respond to make good use of that ability to carry en mass.
November 5th, 2006 09:50 AM
First, Euclidean, let me welcome you back to CC! It is nice to read your words again!
Second, I briefly spent time on your new site, and applaud your efforts! I will spend more time there as allowed, and try to aid your effort in a positive manner. Your Philosophy Statement is excellent - well written, and I will read more!
Third, if I can help in any fashion, please let me know.
Last edited by Rock and Glock; November 5th, 2006 at 10:22 AM.
Reason: Added a short comment with clarification
November 5th, 2006 10:51 AM
Look farther back in time. I think in the texas bell tower shooting one of the people who took the sniper down was a school admin type. You may be able to find some other instances of principals/teachers who had fire arms in thier schools ending things. But as personal fire arms were less a hot button issue the records may be patch at best.
Check out Massad Ayoob's arcticels. I think that is where the above information can from. http://www.findarticles.com/p/search...assad+Ayoob%22
There is a link that should get you started.
November 6th, 2006 07:50 AM
too many sheep
I think this would be opposed by many; most people don't share our enthusiasm about firearms or doing the right thing. I don't think you could 'make' a teacher carry a firearm, much less have many of them that would step up and stop a threat. Most would point the gun at the perp and say something about 'having a gun and knowing how to use this', or you would have those that would run and hide...you would maybe have just a few that would be willing to take up arms and diffuse the situation.
What if the incident happens in some bldg far from where your ccw people are...are you expecting civillians with minimal training to crash enter a bldg with hostages and a crazy man and take the dude out? If all the teachers were armed and willing, this would not be a problem.
I guess some is better than nothing, though. Maybe you could have a sniper.
Good Lord, what is this world coming to....
November 6th, 2006 09:59 AM
I agree with all of the reasoning for your efforts, Euclidean, and think your goal is both worthy and necessary for our times, but I fear that one basic result of your efforts would be that many of the teachers currently in the school system would have to be replaced. Expanding a bit from what ppcpilot said, I actually have a friend who recently (a few years ago) got all of the degrees and certifications necessary to teach in the public school system and currently does so in one of the worst areas of our state (in terms of the populace and crime rate and such). Despite this, he is the only person I'm friends with that I would actually refer to as a sheep - he shies away completely from the very topic of firearms in real life. Now, I would not be so presumptuous or illogical as to think that all teachers are necessarily like him, but I'm sure that some are - whether they're ignorant of the danger they're in or just living in a teen-like state of "that can't happen to me" invulnerability. You should be aware that you'll almost certainly get resistance to your notion from the teachers themselves, because in order for your reforms to be effective, all teachers would have to be trained and carrying (or the first time some utterly insane students attacked the school, they would discover that none or one of the teachers actually was carrying the weapons they were warning they would), and some of them would refuse to. I suppose I sat down and wrote all of this without actually having anything constructive to say on the topic, but perhaps it will be helpful in some fashion - I wish you the very best of luck in your efforts! Teachers should be too valuable a resource to be wasted by students unworthy of their efforts.
November 6th, 2006 11:19 AM
Many in my family are teachers, and they do get attached to their students. While they may shoot to stop an adult madman, I just can not envision them shooting one of their own students...it would be like shooting a son or daughter. You would need to have navy seals or the marines in there for teachers...someone who could pull the trigger with little or no remorse.
November 6th, 2006 09:56 PM
here is a tidbit... (from the Second Amendment foundation July 04 newsletter)
THAI GUN SHOPS OFFER DISCOUNTS TO TEACHERS
Gun shops in Bangkok are offering discounts to teachers in Thailand’s
troubled Muslim south where a spate of almost daily attacks remain uncontrolled by the government. Islamic violence that erupted in January has made schools a common target for arson and gun attacks, leading to teachers being given permission to apply for firearms licenses for self-defense.
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