Honor's or Reciprocity; What do they really mean? - Page 2

Honor's or Reciprocity; What do they really mean?

This is a discussion on Honor's or Reciprocity; What do they really mean? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by realtor That is incorrect. You follow the law of the state in which you are physically present regardless of where you permit ...

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Thread: Honor's or Reciprocity; What do they really mean?

  1. #16
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realtor View Post
    That is incorrect. You follow the law of the state in which you are physically present regardless of where you permit comes from.
    Not necessarily: I believe this falls under the category that you have to abide by both laws and then the stricter one prevails. Because they honor your permit under the laws it was issued.


  2. #17
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    Huzar...Here YOU Go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Huzar View Post
    Well, I just went and read through rules of states that honors CA ccw and about third of the states in their reciprocity/honors sections have something to say to the effect of "must also follow issuing states rules". Which to means is that you have to follow what's stricter. You're right about cops not knowing what are the rules of all the different states (heck most of them have a hard time with CCW rules of their own state) but if something happened and things were to go beyond peace office/holder interaction they'd probably look up the rules.


    Here you go


    Here's one that talks about having to follow your own laws/rules. http://www.sdsos.gov/adminservices/c...tm#Recognition
    Perhaps this information wil assist in understanding FL CCW Permit Holder rights from ANY state...

    Important Legislation Affecting The Rights Of Concealed Weapons License Holders
    Senate Bill 954, passed by the Florida Legislature and signed into law by Governor Bush in April 1999, allows residents from other states who are licensed to carry concealed weapons/firearms to carry their weapons in Florida. The one provision, however, is that those other states must be willing to recognize and honor concealed weapon or firearm licenses issued by the State of Florida so that Florida licensees enjoy the same rights and benefits when they travel to those other states.

    The Division of Licensing will be contacting the licensing authorities in the other states in the next few weeks to determine which states will acknowledge the validity of Florida licenses. The Division of Licensing will maintain a list of the "concealed carry" states on this site, and Florida law enforcement agencies will be notified as to which out-of-state travelers have the right to carry a concealed weapon while visiting Florida.

    Because weapons and firearms laws vary significantly from state to state and can change quickly as a result of government mandates and court decisions, the Division of Licensing strongly recommends that Florida citizens who are concealed weapon/firearm licenseholders check with the licensing authorities in other states when planning to travel with their weapon.

    Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Florida:

    Section 1. (1) Notwithstanding s.790.01, Florida Statutes, a resident of the United States who is a nonresident of Florida may carry a concealed weapon or concealed firearm while in this state if the nonresident:
    (a) Is 21 years of age or older; and
    (b) Has in his or her immediate possession a valid license to carry a concealed weapon or concealed firearm issued to the nonresident in his or her state of residence.
    (2) A nonresident is subject to the same laws and restrictions with respect to carrying a concealed weapon or concealed firearm as a resident of Florida who is so licensed.

    Huzar,
    Please note, with all due respect, Florida does NOT require nonresidents to abide by their resident state laws regarding CCW...only Florida's...

    ret
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  3. #18
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    My thinking has always been - obey the laws of the state in which I am currently based.

    My reciprocity, or ''honored'' permit - is simply my permit to carry in such state - and it is up to me to know what that state allows and disallows.

    I can carry in PA into a bar - elsewhere I may not be so able and would be legally bound to comply. Someone from a state where bar carry is prohibited - would I am thinking be within rights when visiting PA, with their permit being honored, and would be as legally correct as I would be, to carry into a bar.

    Bottom line as I have seen it - obey all laws within the state you are in, re carry - when you have your own permit/permits, recognized there.
    Chris - P95
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  4. #19
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    Huzar...

    Your copied quote does not reflect an individual's requirement to follow another state's laws while CCWing in SD...


    Quote:
    The State of South Dakota recognizes any valid concealed pistol permit issued to a nonresident of South Dakota according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue...


    Additionally, FL allows me to carry any weapon...so SD would allow that even though SD only allows CC of a pistol...that makes no sense...

    I really believe that you're still not reading the above quote correctly.

    Is there an attorney in the house?

    Again, respectfully submitted...

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  5. #20
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    Huzar...Last Bit of Research...

    from SD law...Note: Bold and Underlined Print...

    23-7-7.4. Nonresident permit to carry concealed pistol--Validity in South Dakota-- Application. Any valid permit to carry a concealed pistol, issued to a nonresident of South Dakota, is valid in South Dakota according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue, but only to the extent that the terms of issuance comply with any appropriate South Dakota statute or promulgated rule. However, if the holder of such a nonresident permit to carry a concealed pistol becomes, at any time, a legal resident of South Dakota, the provisions of this section no longer apply.

    Source: SL 2005, ch 123, 1.

    If I'm reading correctly...'according to the terms of its issuance, but...only to the extent that the terms of issuance comply with any appropriate SD statute or promuglated rule...

    This seems pretty clear to me!

    ret
    Last edited by RETSUPT99; November 5th, 2006 at 04:49 PM.
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  6. #21
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Your copied quote does not reflect an individual's requirement to follow another state's laws while CCWing in SD...


    Quote:
    The State of South Dakota recognizes any valid concealed pistol permit issued to a nonresident of South Dakota according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue...


    Additionally, FL allows me to carry any weapon...so SD would allow that even though SD only allows CC of a pistol...that makes no sense...

    I really believe that you're still not reading the above quote correctly.

    Is there an attorney in the house?

    Again, respectfully submitted...

    ret
    OK, maybe I'm misreading it but lets break down the important section (or at least what I think important section is):
    The State of South Dakota recognizes any valid concealed pistol permit issued to a nonresident of South Dakota according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue...
    Which to me reads:
    State of SD recognizes any valid CCW permit issued to a nonresident of SD according to the rules in the state it was issued in. So if my state provides me with additional restrictions then SD does I have to obey them. Example: certain states have no restriction as to which guns can be carried concealed. State of CA (specifically Orange County) limits me to 3 and they have to be listed on the permit. So to me that means that if I go to a state that has no gun limit or listing I still have to limit myself to the listed 3 as that's how my permit was issued.

  7. #22
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    Thumbs up Limits of your state's permit

    Huzar,

    While I'm not an attorney, I think maybe SD's intent is more along the lines of the restrictions placed on your state's permit, making the statement, "according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue" to be referring to the terms under which the permit was issued, not the applicable laws under which it was issued, specifically if you were issued a restricted carry permit from NY for "target shooting ONLY", or a MA "Class B License" which does NOT allow for concealed carry, these type of permits won't be honored as "full concealed carry permits" in SD, but rather only "according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue", limiting your carry in SD not by the laws of your issuing state, but rather by the "type" of license you possess from that state.

    Sorta along the lines of a driver's permit. In WV, you could get a "motorcycle only" driver's permit at age 15, but you'd better not try driving a car in VA on that permit and think you're getting away with it!! However, a standard driver's license issued in WV would, of course, allow me to drive a car in VA. On that same comparison, note that VA school zone speed limits are 25 MPH, while WV school zone speed limits are only 15 MPH, but I can still drive 25 MPH through a VA school zone on my WV driver's permit.

    But the specific three-gun limit, wow! That would be a bit of a hair-splitter - but could certainly cause you grief in the aftermath of any unfortunate incident requiring use of your weapon.

    It's always a little tedious sorting through the applicable laws when we travel - Heck, it's hard enough to get a clear understanding of OUR OWN state laws sometimes!

    Case in point: WV's recognition of VA non-resident permits - WV Attorney General's office official opinion: "We don't know if we recognize non-resident permits issued by VA under our WV-VA reciprocity agreement" - go figure! How are we supposed to know if they don't???

    carry safe,

    ccWV

    I do have to add one point, though, to this discussion. I have been really impressed since I joined this forum at how courteous and professional everyone is and just the level of mutual respect among the posters. It's great to be able to have a discussion like this where we can sort out real issues without the entire thread disintegrating to name-calling and fighting like on some other forums I've seen. Just really speaks to the caliber of the group we have here!
    The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, . . . that it is their RIGHT AND DUTY TO BE AT ALL TIMES ARMED . . . Thomas Jefferson (June 5, 1824)

  8. #23
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    ccWV...

    Quote Originally Posted by ccWV View Post
    Huzar,

    While I'm not an attorney, I think maybe SD's intent is more along the lines of the restrictions placed on your state's permit, making the statement, "according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue" to be referring to the terms under which the permit was issued, not the applicable laws under which it was issued, specifically if you were issued a restricted carry permit from NY for "target shooting ONLY", or a MA "Class B License" which does NOT allow for concealed carry, these type of permits won't be honored as "full concealed carry permits" in SD, but rather only "according to the terms of its issuance in the state of its issue", limiting your carry in SD not by the laws of your issuing state, but rather by the "type" of license you possess from that state.

    Sorta along the lines of a driver's permit. In WV, you could get a "motorcycle only" driver's permit at age 15, but you'd better not try driving a car in VA on that permit and think you're getting away with it!! However, a standard driver's license issued in WV would, of course, allow me to drive a car in VA. On that same comparison, note that VA school zone speed limits are 25 MPH, while WV school zone speed limits are only 15 MPH, but I can still drive 25 MPH through a VA school zone on my WV driver's permit.

    But the specific three-gun limit, wow! That would be a bit of a hair-splitter - but could certainly cause you grief in the aftermath of any unfortunate incident requiring use of your weapon.

    It's always a little tedious sorting through the applicable laws when we travel - Heck, it's hard enough to get a clear understanding of OUR OWN state laws sometimes!

    Case in point: WV's recognition of VA non-resident permits - WV Attorney General's office official opinion: "We don't know if we recognize non-resident permits issued by VA under our WV-VA reciprocity agreement" - go figure! How are we supposed to know if they don't???

    carry safe,

    ccWV

    I do have to add one point, though, to this discussion. I have been really impressed since I joined this forum at how courteous and professional everyone is and just the level of mutual respect among the posters. It's great to be able to have a discussion like this where we can sort out real issues without the entire thread disintegrating to name-calling and fighting like on some other forums I've seen. Just really speaks to the caliber of the group we have here!
    I think that you have explained it well...and...think about it...how would one state be able to prosecute on another's laws...can't do it...
    When in Rome...

    Thanks Huzar and ccWV for some interesting thought...

    At least we all carry and don't like Kerry...

    Stay alert...stay safe!

    ret
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  9. #24
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I think that you have explained it well...and...think about it...how would one state be able to prosecute on another's laws...can't do it...
    When in Rome...

    Thanks Huzar and ccWV for some interesting thought...

    At least we all carry and don't like Kerry...

    Stay alert...stay safe!

    ret
    I hear what you guys are saying but personally I will not push my luck and I will try to stick to the strickter of the two when presented with the choice. I don't want it having to come down to my legal weenie being a better weenie then their legal weenie :D

    All in all it was a good discussion for a beautiful Sunday afternoon.

  10. #25
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    You follow the laws of the state in which you are physically present NOT the state in which your permit is from. Think about it....if you were following the law of state X that your permit is from and carrying in state Y, state X's law could be more LIBERAL or STRICT so the logic would have to work both ways for that analysis to be correct. Secondarily state X's law has no validity in state Y.

    Example: If I can carry in a bar in my permit state of X (as long as I'm not legally intoxicated) and I'm in state Y which forbids carrying in a bar, I can't pull a rabbit out of my hat and say "well, in state X it's legal so it must be OK here as well.

  11. #26
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    LAws of State You Are In

    You must abide by the laws of the state you are in. If your home state says no carry in schools and you are in another state that honors your Permit/License you can carry in schools there if it is legal in that state to carry in shcools.

    The big issue is Restricted permits. NY is big at putting restrictions on the back of their permits. Alabama does this some times also. The ones I have seen from Alabama state no carry where alcohol is served.

    These may cause you problems if you are in another state that honors your permit and you have restrictions on your home state permit. I can not find any case law on this but do be careful if you have restrictions on your Permit/License from your home state.

    You are OK if you also have a Non Resident permit from another state and the local authority has placed no restrictions on it. Then you can carry all places that are legal to carry in that state if they honor the Non Resident permit you hold.

    The restrictions placed on holders by the state in their statutes applly to everyone. These are not Local Restrictions and do not carry over to other states.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

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    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  12. #27
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realtor View Post
    You follow the laws of the state in which you are physically present NOT the state in which your permit is from. Think about it....if you were following the law of state X that your permit is from and carrying in state Y, state X's law could be more LIBERAL or STRICT so the logic would have to work both ways for that analysis to be correct. Secondarily state X's law has no validity in state Y.
    You missed what I have said: I will follow the STRICTER of the two.

  13. #28
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    Thumbs up One Closing Thought . . .

    Huzar,

    One thing to think about to make you more comfortable during your travels - Get a Utah non-resident permit - only $59 plus class. When you compare the states that honor California's permit vs. the states that honor Utah's (or Florida's, for that matter), there isn't a single state left out, as a matter of fact, there are, as I'm sure you know, many more states that you can carry legally in. This would certainly relive you of the specific three-gun limitation imposed by California as you would not be carrying under your California permit, but rather your Utah permit. The only states you would have to worry about then would be California and Michigan (as MI only recognizes permits issued by residents of the state of issue).

    And as far as your better safe than sorry scenario, Utah has a pretty reasonable list of "restricted" areas that you are not allowed to carry in:

    1. Any secure area in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition is posted
    2. A secure area of an airport
    3. Any courthouse, courtroom, mental health facility or correctional facility that may provide by rule that no firearm may be transported, sold, given, or possessed upon the facility. At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to a secure area in which a dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive is restricted
    4. What about private business, can they post signs prohibiting someone from carrying a gun into their business even though the person may have a firearm permit? Naturally, private property owners may apply what ever restrictions they want, whether or not these restrictions violates ones personal rights is for the civil courts to decide. But the only statutory restriction on a permit holder is secured areas such as airports and federal buildings.
    5. May I carry my loaded and concealed firearm into a bar or other drinking other establishment? There is nothing in state statute that prohibits permit holders from being in a bar with a concealed firearm. However, it is illegal to be intoxicated and in possession of a firearm. The level of intoxication that is considered illegal is held to the same standard as when driving a car.

    Just a little food for thought . . .

    Great discussion all

    carry safe,

    ccWV
    The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, . . . that it is their RIGHT AND DUTY TO BE AT ALL TIMES ARMED . . . Thomas Jefferson (June 5, 1824)

  14. #29
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccWV View Post
    Huzar,

    One thing to think about to make you more comfortable during your travels - Get a Utah non-resident permit - only $59 plus class.
    Thanks for the suggestion. Actually I got all the classes and paperwork done for both UT and FL and the only thing I need to do is get fingerprinted. As soon as that happens I'll be sending both out.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huzar View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion. Actually I got all the classes and paperwork done for both UT and FL and the only thing I need to do is get fingerprinted. As soon as that happens I'll be sending both out.
    Sweet!

    Florida took about 50 days for me and I'm still waiting on Utah (53 days and counting . . .), but I know that Utah is absolutely overwhelmed! I also heard that the money from the permits goes into their general treasury, while the funding for operations is determined by their state legislature - you can imagine the problem here: fixed income for staff, equipment, etc., even though the income stream from permits has increased - imagine that, politicians not wanting to turn loose of money !

    ccWV
    The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, . . . that it is their RIGHT AND DUTY TO BE AT ALL TIMES ARMED . . . Thomas Jefferson (June 5, 1824)

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