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Post Office Carry ?

18K views 206 replies 51 participants last post by  Aceoky 
#1 ·
I'm getting conflicting answers on this.

I can not find any good answer.

This is from the Louisiana State Police on prohibited areas - no mention of post office.



A law enforcement office, station, or building;
A detention facility, prison, or jail;
A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom;
A polling place;
A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision;
The state capitol building;
Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage;
Any church, synagogue, mosque or similar place of worship; See RS 40:1379.3 (U)
A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity;
Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
Any school "firearm free zone" as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.

Thanks
 
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#120 ·
The law is clear enough "on inside the building", we're discussing public parking for customers on USPS parking lots and leaving your CCW in the locked vehicle while going inside etc.

HERE you can't take in schools either (even with CCDW permit) without permission from the BOE but you CAN legally have it in your car , even without a CCDW permit so long as you don't threaten with it etc. and it doesn't leave the vehicle for other than lawful purposes - violation(upon conviction) is up to $10,000 and 5 years in prison.
 
#119 ·
It is always best to learn the rules or laws where one will be carrying before hand.
Agreed , however there are far too many laws for judges and lawyers, LEO to keep up(much less those of us wanting to follow all the laws as best we can) with when it comes to this topic, which is the real point on this thread's topic. Most of us were sure we were 100% legal and though I don't agree that it's "settled law" (an employee on employee parking lot in "sensitive areas" is not a ruling on public parking for customers by any stretch of the imagination . Regardless it is another stupid do nothing law that only makes criminals out of folks trying to abide by the letter of the law and without the parking clearly marked no guns in private vehicles enforcement is far from "a done deal" IMO being charged is not the same thing as getting convicted, without clear intent to break the law (motive) it's far from clear. The USPS losing so much $$ now should have better things to do and since I often see pistols on seats in plain view (legal here also) and no rash of prosecutions I'm betting they're not in a hurry to test public parking VS states rights - I'm NOT interested in being a "test case" SO "I" will avoid the USPS which will cost them some bucks due to their own stupidity
 
#123 ·
Property is something owned, be it land, items, or facilities--or any or all of the above.
 
#127 ·
Yep and I pay property taxes on my vehicles, the USPS does not ;) . The weapon(S) thus are on MY property regardless if my property is parked on USPS parking lot and so long as it so remains never was off my property. I'm am 100% positive this is not enforced here much (IF at all) like I said I've seen many guns in vehicles on PO parking lots and before this thread never gave that a second thought.

I have NO doubt at all that I'm not the first (or only) person who didn't have a clue they were in violation of ANY laws by leaving weapon(s) in my vehicle on a Post Office parking lot; now that I'm aware they lose business- a win/lose IMO they lose business for stupidity on something that in no way affects them at all otherwise
 
#124 ·
It is confusing, however. In Texas, we are allowed to carry on university property provided that we do not enter the buildings and the campus has not posted 30.06 Gunbusters. Parking lots have been written to allow for this (are not considered "premises" for CHL holders) in every state statute as far as I can tell. While federal buildings, and this federal laws, are a different subject entirely, I can see how these conflicts would cause someone who doesn't take this habit as seriously as those of us on here (we are the minority after all) a lot of confusion.
 
#125 ·
good luck with that strategy
you have clearly missed where I had stated due to our Supreme Court's ruling exactly that,( that UK had every right to limit weapons on their property but NOT inside of citizens vehicles on their parking lots) - That MANY folks would not realize that PO parking lots may be different (again I have never seen ANY case law where a customer was convicted for simply having a permit and disarming before leaving their vehicle( and- since you ARE legally allowed to carry in your state and guns don't magically vanish because you need to go to the PO.......the "gray area' is huge IMO legally speaking. One's right to carry doesn't "magically vanish" because the USPS wants it to, and IMO the fact one is disarming before leaving their vehicle is proof of an attempt to comply with said law.

As I have stated since learning this I no longer wish to do any amount of business with the USPS due to this stupidity, my point is that MANY folks do not realize this law even exists......that is not "some strategy" but is a fact
 
#130 ·
you have clearly missed where I had stated due to our Supreme Court's ruling exactly that,( that UK had every right to limit weapons on their property but NOT inside of citizens vehicles on their parking lots)
Didn't miss that, actually. But that's one state's high court. So far as I can tell, that ruling regarding a state university is not relevant to the USPS on a national basis. It's all well and good that KY's high court indicates this, strange as it may seem to me. But I hardly believe federal property conditions of the U.S. Code would be impacted by a KY state specific ruling of a KY court.
 
#126 ·
It is considered Unlawful to carry a firearm in a US Postal Facility. It IS posted at the main PO in my AO.
 
#128 ·
We are all aware of this reality-

THIS discussion is in YOUR vehicle on USPS parking lots (customer parking- public parking) which is not posted on any I have ever been to in several states...... which I believe IF they're going to try to enforce it they must be posted so we KNOW they're not allowed even with permits issued by our states.
 
#129 ·
Well, who is enforcing all this bull? Haven't seen any metal detectors at my PO....
If you knew I had a gun and would be leaving it in my truck while I check my PO box, if you called 911 when I hit the parking lot, would the cops even get there before I was gone? Don't think so. Would local LEO even attempt to enforce a stupid federal law? Seems like a lot of hassle for nothing.
 
#131 ·
Well, ONLY IF State's Rights matter to anyone I suppose. What the court's ruling does (IMO) is to make it clear that your vehicle is still your property no matter where it's temporarily parked . Thus weapons on your property are not on USPS property so long as they remain inside your property. Unless and until that is argued we're spinning our wheels here, however it would be an affirmative defense IMO and one that could work- because trust me- most do not realize that public parking could be construed a violation - the fact it's not enforced around here where weapons are clearly visible on USPS lots is pretty telling IMO -

My point is simple enough and accurate IMO- when state laws allow for carry (In vehicle without permit especially) and the parking lot is NOT Clearly Marked- the legality of "property forbidden" is not "clear cut law" - the post the entrance and inside for a reason do they not? Which leads me to believe that the PUBLIC parking areas are not considered "USPS property" under the laws or they'd also be clearly posted no weapons are allowed- at this point State's Rights are likely to prevail and since no one has posted where thousands are being charged I must have a valid point


Also the popular case about "USPS Parking lot" is an Employee parking in a secured area- (which the court made a point to mention "Trucks were being loaded and unloaded there" )=Not a Public Parking Lot/ Area- which makes a huge difference as well- IMO

Case in point those secured areas ARE clearly posted, public areas are not so marked (no place I've seen or been at least) never heard of a USPS public parking lot posted - yet the INSIDE IS......hmmm wonder why?

Regardless it's simple enough to not utilize the USPS or their parking while this is on the books (enforced or not) that is my "game plan" . Keeping law abiding gun owners away is stupid business model but they are losing big $ so I'm not shocked at all.
 
#170 ·
The real issue here (in this particular case) IS that they had a gun in a clearly Posted restricted area (which even as an employee they were not required to park there and had other parking "readily available" ) I think there is no winning for the employee here (IMO)

that being said however that has zero bearing on customers using public non posted parking lot used by legal gun owners complying with all the laws. To even begin to enforce public parking they would first have to post said lots, that is impossible IMO to even debate. The regulations make it clear no posting no conviction

ETA this is NOT the case I was thinking of, where a USPS employee got fired for having a gun in a restricted clearly posted area - My Mistake
 
#141 ·
I am not sure but I think I read somewhere that the parking lot of a post office is not encompassed by the "Federal" property portion. I think it only pertains to the facility itself as many post offices are on leased properties owned by private owners.

If a post office is next door to a grocery store in a strip mall and share the same sidewalk then the entire sidewalk is legal to carry on. You don't have to jump to the curb when passing the post office.
 
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#142 ·
...I agree with the second paragraph...the PO doesn't own the parking lot...when in a store or strip with other stores and a common parking lot...
...if you can find us a legally binding cite on the first paragraph...you'll be my new hero...the laws quoted earlier in the thread say otherwise, as does the quote by a USPS spokesperson...and if the PO is on a leased property not shared by other businesses, the lease(and control of the building and parking lot) would be theirs...
 
#143 ·
Here is a snippet of the Federal laws pertaining to firearms on federal property



(g) As used in this section: (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.



(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.


(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.


(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
 
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#167 ·
Here is a snippet of the Federal laws pertaining to firearms on federal property



(g) As used in this section: (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.



(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.


(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.


(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
Notice two things:

Buildings are clearly mentioned in the law--- parking lots are Not

Unless it's posted you cannot be convicted

BUT what does USPS themselves actually STATE (not some "opinion")

Applicability
_ _________________________
These rules and regulations apply to all real property
under the charge and control of the U.S. Postal
Service
®
, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons
entering in or on such property.

These rules and
regulations must be kept posted at a conspicuous
place on all such property
.

http://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf

ALL SUCH property these rules and regulations apply to and PUBLIC parking areas are not posted

Seems simple enough now doesn't it? :wave:
 
#144 ·
...from 39CFR 232.1: (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

...what you quote above pertains to Federal buildings and not the parking lots...the Post Office has their own laws...and they include all PO property...including the public parking lots...
 
#145 ·
I will also buck the common belief that it is illegal to carry in a federal building.


Read this. This clearly says EXCEPT as provided in subsection (d).

18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities





(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or
both.




And here is subsection (d) which clearly says (a) does not apply to what is contained in (d)




(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.






Legal licensed carry for defensive purposes is, as far as I can ascertain, a lawful purpose.
 
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#152 ·
...I'm not aware of any cite proving that CCW is considered a lawful purpose as exempted by (3)...can you cite one for us? it would sure make life easier if we could claim this when we go to Soc Security, IRS, other gov't offices...but I haven't seen any proof that it is valid for CCW...
 
#147 ·
There is also federal laws on interstate transport of firearms which would include a post office parking lot.

Title 18 - Part 1 - Chapter 44 -926A§
926A.
Interstate Transportation Of Firearms


Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political
subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping,
or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he
may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry
such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any
ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment
of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console
 
#150 ·
...having or storing a firearm on PO property is not a lawful purpose...and would exclude us from the protection offered here..., nor does this law have to do with Federal property...it says "Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political
subdivision thereof,..."NOT relating to other Federal laws prohibiting possession on gov't property or, in this case, the PO...

...even if it were to apply, which, reading it, it doesn't...it wouldn't be of any benefit to us as CHL folks if we had to unload and secure our weapons/ammo in the trunk or lock them up to mail a letter at the drop box...way too cumbersome...
 
#157 ·
#155 ·
Bottom line: When you enter a post office or the parking lot of the post office with a firearm you are on your own... You can argue this back and forth and if you are found with a weapon on postal property they will more than likely prosecute..... Good luck.....
 
#173 ·
I'm doubting a legal gun owner causing no issues would be or could be since the parking lot isn't posted but considering the below a bunch of trouble for ......



Penalties
_
and
_
Other
_
Law
_______________
Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are
heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are
imposed, either in a federal district court or by a
federal magistrate in accordance with applicable
court rules. Questions regarding such rules must be
directed to the managing counsel for the office
involved.
Individuals found guilty of violating these rules and
regulations are subject to a fine of not more than $50
or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both.
http://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf
 
#160 ·
And before I get attacked for pushing concealed carry at a post office, let me make it clear. I AM NOT condoning this action! I am simply making an argument, or food for thought, given the wording of the laws.

I do not carry into the post office when I go, but, I also do not hide my carry gun in a trash can at a supermarket while I am inside either. My handgun stays securely encased inside my vehicle.
 
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#164 ·
There isnt any signs barring firearms at post offices in my area. And since the post office in one town shares its building with the county clerks office and another private office that dont bar firearms either, actually cant bar open carry at the county clerks office by law and the fact its shares its parking lot with a carpet store and the other places i mentioned I could only see this applying to the actual part of that building that is seperated from the rest by a glass door and wall.

I personally dont disarm to go in that building unless I am going into the post office portion of it. The rest of the building is leased by the other businessess and not by the Post office.
 
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#168 ·
Regarding the posting of the parking lots. It IS in most cases federal land, the last time I went to the AFB 4th of July fireworks show, the base did not have a sign saying no firearms beyond this point at the entrance I used, however it is known you may not have firearms there AND you are subject to a vehicle search thus it would be stupid to have one in your car.
Now to the point in question, if you ran into Mr Murphy and happened to be spotted disarming ON fed property (ie the PO parking lot) and such behavior was reported to LEO you could be arrested, or worse if LEO or a Postal Inspector spotted you you would likely be arrested, depending on their view. One if those "I don't wanna be a test case" scenarios. If I have my gun on me, 98% of the time, I use the drop box by the store, if I MUST go in, I use the older office down town that has cross street (not their lot) parking. If I must pick up an item that was too large/needed a signature, I schedule a day/time to leave gun at home, pick up pkg etc and go straight home.


Posted from the outer reaches of the universe via my Star Fleet communicator! Live long & prosper.
 
#169 ·
All due respect Ogre, the law clearly states MUST be posted to be enforced, but to "play along" notice this from the USPS rules and regs (Link posted above)...

Vehicles and their contents brought into, while on, or
being removed from restricted nonpublic areas are
subject to inspection.
RESTRICTED NON Public areas - so IF (as some maintain) they regulate Public parking areas there would in fact be no good reason to inspect ONLY nonpublic areas - which again proves they're NOT trying to prosecute legal gun owners not breaking the laws- they make a point of stating restricted non public areas- I figure there are reasons for this?

happened to be spotted disarming ON fed property (ie the PO parking lot) and such behavior was reported to LEO you could be arrested,
Doubtful as LEO don't enforce Fed law and again without it being posted it's not legally enforceable per the regulations themselves
 
#171 ·
...for those who haven't actually had the opportunity to read the Bonidy case that we're talking about here...this description of what actually happened is directly from their civil suit which they filed after a conversation...they weren't parked anywhere...they filed this as a response to questions asked and answers received:

20. On July 22, 2010, the Bonidys, through counsel, contacted the USPS to inquire as
to whether they would be subject to prosecution pursuant to 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l) if they carried a
firearm on USPS property or stored a firearm in their cars when they parked on USPS property
when picking up their mail. Exh. 1.
21. On August 3, 2010, Senior Vice President and General Counsel Mary Anne
Gibbons responded, on behalf of Postmaster General John Potter, to the Bonidys’ July 22, 2010,
letter. Ms. Gibbons stated, “the regulations governing Conduct on Postal Property prevent the
Bonidys from carrying firearms, openly or concealed, onto any real property under the charge
and control of the Postal Service. . . . There are limited exceptions to this policy that would not
apply here.” Exh. 2.

...they did not DO it, they filed suit for all our benefit, to try to get the laws struck down...we shall see...


...the above from this link: http://archive.recapthelaw.org/cod/122068/ you can download the complaint to see what actually happened...worth our following it...


...the earlier quoted Dorosan case involved an employee...and he was charged with a felony, not a small fine...the source law was invoked in addition to the USPS law in 232.1...at the Postal Inspector's option...
 
#175 ·
I see this is back to arguing about federal property again. Go back to the first couple pages... its NOT about whether or not a USPO is federal property. Its about the fact that the USPO has its own specific code of federal regulations that is even more strict than the ones carried in other CFR's about federal property. They have their own verbiage. One might find it harsh and over reaching but... it exists. And it is broad. It says "postal property". And since its in a CFR is is Federal Law.

Repeat:

39 CFR (the post office law)

(l)
Weapons and explosives.
No person
while on postal property may carry
firearms, other dangerous or deadly
weapons, or explosives, either openly
or concealed, or store the same on
postal property, except for official pur-
poses.
 
#176 ·
ALL of that is true and

SO what? I even posted some of the USPS regs AND A LINK to them; clearly that is not "news"and per their regs, the property must be posted where one can see the posting, inside or on the door is not applicable to a parking lot- the lot would have to be posted (as the restricted area ARE clearly posted )

Repeat :

It also clearly says shall be posted in all areas that apply and says they can search/inspect vehicles in non public restricted areas but not public parking areas. IF it applied to public parking areas per their own laws it MUST be posted (not "can be " not 'should be" but must be) that is simple enough and true and contained in the Regs themselves as I posted clearly above.

Anyone is free to believe they're going around on non posted parking areas looking to prosecute law abiding gun owners for $50 and 30 days in jail MAX- well Ok then

One other thing "Federal Property" states "buildings or parts thereof" NOT parking lots....and yet again, IF you can legally carry they MUST allow for you to comply they cannot make it impossible for you to not break the laws when you attempt to do so (by in this case disarming before exiting your vehicle) we live in a Free nation not a "police state" no matter what some say (including some politicians it seems)

IF it really is illegal I again ask for the thousands of convictions that have to be readily available, in states where open carry and vehicle carry ARE legal (not where just having a gun in a car is a felony- different argument and no lawful purpose etc. ) I have zero doubt that tens if not hundreds of thousands of times per day folks park on USPS lots with guns in their vehicles as I said it's common to see them in plain view in Ky on a regular basis yet where are all the convictions?
 
#181 ·
You are missing the point EVERY Fed law about carry concerning Fed property has two requirements, Buildings or parts thereof and MUST be posted- public parking lots are not posted thus there is "nothing to change" it's not illegal best I can see :smile:

Now being stupid enough to have a weapon in the Clearly POSTED restricted NON Public parking areas is another horse of another color and has no bearing on public parking areas whatsoever
 
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