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Milwaukee Aldi's Shooting Update

7K views 84 replies 42 participants last post by  Snub44 
#1 ·
Some of you may remember when Wisconsin was granted conceal carry, and Nazir Al-Mujaahid was the first to use his weapon under this new law.
Well this is an update that he finally recieved his gun back after 14 or 15 months. Longer then one of the one of the badguys. He was released before Nazir got his gun back.

Anyway CCW Advocates just posted the video of this shooting.


Concealed Carry Holder Stops Armed Robbery - YouTube
 
#47 ·
What he describes is not consistent with what is shown in the surveillance video. He says the situation was getting more intense and more agitated and he feared for the life of the cashier as well as others including his own.

The video shows Nazir positioning himself towards the front of the store where he knew the robber would be leaving. Nazir was on the move but not to a place of safety. If he truly feared for his life he could have gone to the rear of the store but instead he moved to the front. He was going to out smart the robber (which he did) while putting other people at risk.

The guy is leaving the store and Nisir moves forward into position and points his gun first at the robber.

At 1:44 on the video Nasir pulls out his gun, points it and then puts it down. The robber is walking out of the store, there is NO threat and then he sees Nasir in a confrontational manor and THEN raises his shotgun IN RESPONSE TO NASIRs actions. He has his gun DOWN until he sees Nasir. He did not point his gun at Nasir first.

If he had spun around and fired back at Nasir with a shotgun there were plenty of innocent people that could have easily been hit.

This was an unnecessarily risky move to pull in a crowded store.


What do the LEO's on this site have to say about how this situation should have been handled???
 
#46 ·
...we often see folks who have made their choices and decided their values on becoming involved getting really upset with those who've made different decisions...

...the fact that what I would choose to do is totally different than your choice does not threaten you...you cannot possibly know my training and experiences...and they cannot possibly be identical to yours...
...even if we had lived our whole lives side-by-side...we'd still likely choose to do things differently...

...consider your options, make your decisions by what the law allows and what you feel about the areas where you have a choice...and live it out...even if nobody agrees with you....but give the next man the same respect you want and don't tell him he's stupid or foolish because he would do something that you would not...

...I've always liked the old quote attributed to George Orwell:


"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."


...not all of those "rough men" are, or ever were, in law enforcement...or soldiers...some are just men who believe in standing against evil...and if in the future one of them saves you, your wife, your daughter or son from an evil person...you won't really mind that it "wasn't his job", will you?
 
#52 ·
The rules of handgun use (not safety) are 'seek concealment, cover, distance and time'. The GG did not seek cover and had he done so the BG would not have pointed a gun at him.

Ayoob's rules are 'only in the gravest extreme to protect yourself or your loved ones'. The GG is lucky the DA didn't charge him. I'm not saying what HE did is bad, wrong, for him, but I would not do so. I want to have my firearm and be living at home to protect my loved ones. The GG for all his bravado is not a policeman.
 
#60 ·
Just to answer your last sentence, do you realize the police have no duty to engage this person either. The police are grounded under the same penal code laws as the rest of us.
 
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#54 ·
The threat may be leaving, but is he still a threat is the real question.
 
#55 ·
I do not have a problem morally with what he did. According to other posters he was within his legal rights so no issue there either. The only problem I have with what he did is that I hear a lot of members from this forum as well as on youtube saying that one of the reasons why they carry every day is that they owe it to their family to come home safely every night. This guy engaged in a gunfight with a robber at what looks like to be range of about 10 feet in a situation where he had very little cover and could have very easily been shot and killed by the BG. I feel when he first engaged but did not have a bullet chambered he had a good clean shot which would have surprised the BG and was not out in the open but once that happened he should have racked the slide and found some cover and then engage if he still can safely. I do not have a problem with people being brave but I don't want to see that on a good guy's tombstone.
 
#56 ·
I would definitely have my firearm deployed and then seek cover if at all possible even if it's just going to a kneeling position.

Just remember everyone, what might seem to be a good shoot at the time has to be defended in court. Every bullet has a lawyer attached and costs about $10k in legal fees to defend. You are often charged and it's up to the DA to decide. This is different than if it's a loved one where you have -no choice-, you must take the shot when you can.

Know the laws in your state and stay out of harm's way is the best plan in today's litigious society. If the BG is running away I would not want to have to explain or defend shooting him in the back if he turned and snapped off a shot and I returned fire at his back. Spending 15 months in legal agony is something I would wish on no one. And in addition, be sure you're ready to spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder as even BGs have family and friends.

I'm not saying leave a defenseless mother and baby in the lurch while you run away, just be very mindful of what you are doing.

$0.02
 
#62 ·
At the point he shot in the video I am not 100% convinced the guy was leaving. he could have been walking over to check on his get away vehicle and driver. he could have also shot the next person through the door, etc.. What concerns me in the situation is how do you know if you react like the GG was that any of the others in that store weren't observing as a backup for the BG and would not have drawn down on you. At the time the GG fired the others were behind him. Any of them could have been a "got your back" person for the BG.. LMK if you don't feel that should have been checked. It definitely concerned me watching the video to the point I was following all in the area as it played out.
 
#66 ·
If you go around shoving guns in people's faces, threatening to KILL them, in order to greedily intimidate and enrich yourself with that which you are too lazy or stupid to earn... there must be a downside. The prevailing downside is that someone may take exception to your threats and kill you. This is how it must be, or these acts will be committed with impunity.

You do take a great risk as laws seem to be creatively interpreted and people seem to lack common sense "waah you're not a cop waah you probably didn't need to draw." The situation was unacceptable and the guy stepped up and put a stop to it. Practically speaking, it seems really difficult to find fault with that.
 
#69 ·
The security footage has no audio, a crucial bit of missing information. The CCW'er had information we don't. We also have the advantage of hindsight, and the ability to watch multiple angles again and again. The citizen had to manage a fluid, chaotic situation occurring in real time. We're not in danger watching a video, he was. Would I have done the same? Hard for me to say since I wasn't there. But I think he was justified.

That said, a few minutes spent viewing that clip should finally drive the last nail in the coffin for those who carry without one in the chamber. He was lucky to survive a close quarters engagement with an unloaded sidearm!
 
#70 ·
The security footage has no audio, a crucial bit of missing information. The CCW'er had information we don't. We also have the advantage of hindsight, and the ability to watch multiple angles again and again. The citizen had to manage a fluid, chaotic situation occurring in real time. We're not in danger watching a video, he was. Would I have done the same?
That is probably the crucial aspect we must keep in mind every time we're reviewing someone else's actions for reasonableness, such as viewing these sorts of videos, or hearing testimony as a juror in court. We simply do not have all the information that the person had on the instant of the situation occurring (ie, aural inputs, knowing things that were said or done outside the video). We might well have additional info the person didn't have, but that's invariably colored by hindsight, multiple views.

Good point!
 
#72 ·
Anybody notice that the GG DREW AND TRIED TO FIRE,REALISED HE HAD AN EMPTY CHAMBER AND HAD TO CHAMBER A ROUND,BY THEN THE BG NOTICED HIM AND TOOK OFF.Had he been in a F to F confrontation that screwup could have got him killed.
 
#75 ·
Speaking for myself.....

I've had LE training and background, along with other weapon and training experience.....and have been carrying for 20 years, largely on my CCW permit.

I know I couldn't dream up every possible scenario which might occur, but I've spent considerable time over the years thinking about my correct response based on different circumstances.

Even as a police officer, I was trained that if off duty but armed, and one found oneself in the midst of an armed robbery with civilians present, the best initial response is to be a good witness. Pulling a gun in that situation, lacking aggravating factors, is only likely to start a gun fight, and kill or injure innocent victims or myself.

So, first, be a good witness, but if it appears that another persons life, or my life, is in imminent danger, then one should be prepared to do what you need to do in that case.

The first thing to do is to pay attention, have my gun in my hand discreetly, or at least my hand on it, and if I could move without drawing the BG's attention, then I'd want to find cover where I can also see what's going on.

For me, the line has always been, and is, that if the BG fires his weapon, whether he hits anyone or not, then all bets are off, and I'm going to act. If the BG is threatening GBH or death, then I'm not likely to intervene.

In the grocery store case in Milwaukee, I give the GG points for being discreet, and gradually easing himself into a position where he had a line of fire away from innocents, and he just didn't announce and jump right into the middle of the events transpiring around the cashiers area.

However, I don't believe I would have fired in this case, but certainly would have had my pistol out, behind my leg or otherwise out of view, and maneuvering as the GG did in this case, but also keeping cover in mind....which he did not do. The BG could easily have started shooting at the GG or other innocents, and who knows what the result of that would be....possibly very very bad.

The BG was leaving, and I believe I would have let him go....

Just my thoughts....hope and trust it never happens.....

George
 
#84 ·
I've had LE training and background, along with other weapon and training experience.....and have been carrying for 20 years, largely on my CCW permit.

I know I couldn't dream up every possible scenario which might occur, but I've spent considerable time over the years thinking about my correct response based on different circumstances.

Even as a police officer, I was trained that if off duty but armed, and one found oneself in the midst of an armed robbery with civilians present, the best initial response is to be a good witness. Pulling a gun in that situation, lacking aggravating factors, is only likely to start a gun fight, and kill or injure innocent victims or myself.

So, first, be a good witness, but if it appears that another persons life, or my life, is in imminent danger, then one should be prepared to do what you need to do in that case.

The first thing to do is to pay attention, have my gun in my hand discreetly, or at least my hand on it, and if I could move without drawing the BG's attention, then I'd want to find cover where I can also see what's going on.

For me, the line has always been, and is, that if the BG fires his weapon, whether he hits anyone or not, then all bets are off, and I'm going to act. If the BG is threatening GBH or death, then I'm not likely to intervene.

In the grocery store case in Milwaukee, I give the GG points for being discreet, and gradually easing himself into a position where he had a line of fire away from innocents, and he just didn't announce and jump right into the middle of the events transpiring around the cashiers area.

However, I don't believe I would have fired in this case, but certainly would have had my pistol out, behind my leg or otherwise out of view, and maneuvering as the GG did in this case, but also keeping cover in mind....which he did not do. The BG could easily have started shooting at the GG or other innocents, and who knows what the result of that would be....possibly very very bad.

The BG was leaving, and I believe I would have let him go....

Just my thoughts....hope and trust it never happens.....

George
Does this mean we should wait until someone is killed before acting?? Not from this guy......

For those guessing the threat was over,,,,,,what will be your stance if a perp went back next week and killed three people because he was high on dope???? MY conscience couldn't deal with it......
 
#79 ·
Apparently the video doesn't tell the whole story. If you read the comment that the GG left for the video (it's at the top), he says that the BG was still mouthing off that he was going to shoot everyone's heads off when the GG fired, and also he says that the GG actually first fired his gun when the BG had it pointed at the pregnant woman's head. GG had the safety on, and that is why the gun did not go off.

He engaged during the threat, and did not cease engagement even though BG was fleeing (while still holding a gun and making threats to shoot again). I think that is a different scenario than just shooting a fleeing BG.

I remember a few years ago there was a "police brutality" video where it looked like the cop all of a sudden flipped out for no reason and started banging the perp's head against the cruiser right after he got the cuffs on the perp. In reality, the perp was squeezing and twisting the cop's junk, and the cop did what he had to do to get him to stop. Totally justified, but at first glance it didn't look like it. Same thing here, when you hear the whole story, it makes more sense.
 
#80 ·
Man, that safety can get you killed! If you carry a gun either unloaded (stupid!) or with the safety on, you'd better drill and drill and drill until getting the gun operational is unconscious, automatic.
 
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#85 ·
...I once caught a young man with his girlfriend, a .22 revolver, and three lids of marijuana...at about 11 pm by an oxidation pond in his car...that was about 500 feet outside the city limits...I got him out and gave him a choice...let me decide what to do or call the SO and let them handle him...he chose me, so I scattered the three lids and threw his gun in the pond...and told him how many water moccasins I'd killed out of the pond...and never to let me catch him dirty again...good training session for my rookie...

...about 3 weeks later...I woke up and read the morning paper to see a story where a fellow officer had pulled his young butt out of a building he was burglarizing...and thanked God that I'd divested him of his gun...instead of just letting him go...
...our choices DO affect others down the road a bit...
 
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