115g 124g, 124g+p then +P+...it's all greek to me

This is a discussion on 115g 124g, 124g+p then +P+...it's all greek to me within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Serious question.....Don't need stats, or ballistic gel test results...just need a sesame street answer. Self defense ammo for a Glock-26.....I really don't understand all the ...

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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    115g 124g, 124g+p then +P+...it's all greek to me

    Serious question.....Don't need stats, or ballistic gel test results...just need a sesame street answer.

    Self defense ammo for a Glock-26.....I really don't understand all the variations of grain charges +P or +P+ or whatever else they say so I really do not understand the differences....so basically when I buy self defense ammo I am buying on the advise of someone who supposedly knows more about this than I do as I really don't know what I'm buying or why other than someone said it was good self defense ammo..

    On a tip from a friend, I am currently buying Federal HST 124g SD ammo....but I really have no idea why or what it does or does not do.....

    My question is simple....If you have a 9mm handgun what do you thinks is a proper SD ammo to carry and why....

    Sorry to hang everyone up like this, but I'm still learning.........
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I prefer heavy for caliber, but in truth, it probably is not worth the time or effort to debate.
    Pick one and enjoy life.
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I prefer heavy for caliber, but in truth, it probably is not worth the time or effort to debate.
    Pick one and enjoy life.
    Sorry if you misunderstood....I am not looking for a debate...just a couple of informed suggestions from people who have more experience than I do in this area.

    But yes...I will enjoy life .... no problem there.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    And, I gave a suggestion with the qualification that it really will probably not make much difference.

    Have you tried to shoot any of them? Do you shoot one better than the other?
    In the grand scheme of things, assuming a popular brand, for a intents and purposes, you are splitting hairs.
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    First off, the gr weight is the weight of the bullet, and has nothing to do with the powder charge. SAAMI (SAAMI | Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) sets the acceptable limits of pressure for different caliber. For example a 124 gr. bullet develop a certain pressure. The 124 gr +P has a higher powder charge and develops a higher pressure. Standard and +P are both SAAMI ratings. SAAMI does not rate any ammo at +P+ ratings due to there being no accepted criteria for it. To my knowledge no gun manufacture will warranty a gun that has been used with +P+ loads.

    The Federal HST is a round developed for uniform expansion. It is basically an updated version of the old Hydra Shok without the lead post in the center. I use it in my 9mm's and .45's. I also used it in my .40's when I had them.
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    And, I gave a suggestion with the qualification that it really will probably not make much difference.

    Have you tried to shoot any of them? Do you shoot one better than the other?
    In the grand scheme of things, assuming a popular brand, for a intents and purposes, you are splitting hairs.
    Well, I have heard and again don't know but like Horady 115g Critical defense is ok to use in the open but would not be good if you needed to shoot through glass, or doors or any type of barrier so I don't think I would want to carry a round such as that...I am sure some ammo has more capability and uses than others and I am just looking for information so I can make informed decisions also.

    However, if you are of the opinion one is no better than another I will accept that and thank you for your suggestion. You see you may be right...but I don't have that knowledge base yet about ammo loads.
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    First off, the gr weight is the weight of the bullet, and has nothing to do with the powder charge. SAAMI (SAAMI | Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) sets the acceptable limits of pressure for different caliber. For example a 124 gr. bullet develop a certain pressure. The 124 gr +P has a higher powder charge and develops a higher pressure. Standard and +P are both SAAMI ratings. SAAMI does not rate any ammo at +P+ ratings due to there being no accepted criteria for it. To my knowledge no gun manufacture will warranty a gun that has been used with +P+ loads.

    The Federal HST is a round developed for uniform expansion. It is basically an updated version of the old Hydra Shok without the lead post in the center. I use it in my 9mm's and .45's. I also used it in my .40's when I had them.
    Thanks for that explanation.......
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    Glockman is right. I run 124s for the simple reason that it is what is available. +P or standard, I doubt it matters much.

    I think the point Glockman was making is: don't burn your time analyzing and vivisecting terminal performances of various bullets and pressures. While the manufacturers want you to think theirs is the best, bullets anymore are so good that any decent carry ammo will get you home. Your time is better spent shooting.

    Any of the weights and loads you listed will come complete with guys telling you why each load is the best, or worst.

    They will all work.

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    When your talking about grains in bullets, your talking about bullet weight and more knock down power because of a heavier bullet. The +P or +P+ is a round that's hotter than a standard load (it has more gun powder making it a hotter load) so it adds to the velocity (speed) to a round, also giving more knock down power.

    I carry a Glock 19 with 147 grain jacketed hollow points.

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    I think the 124 gr HSTs will serve you well. I've been carrying 147 gr HST ammo in my HK USP (wouldn't have preferred the 135 gr but can't get any right now).
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
    When your talking about grains in bullets, your talking about bullet weight and more knock down power because of a heavier bullet. The +P or +P+ is a round that's hotter than a standard load (it has more gun powder making it a hotter load) so it adds to the velocity (speed) to a round, also giving more knock down power.

    I carry a Glock 19 with 147 grain jacketed hollow points.
    Appreciate that...two items I was not aware of in ratings.....I guess this is old news for the more experienced guys here, but I'm just starting my journey so information like this is useful to me. Only been shooting and carrying for less than 8 months now so I'm sure there is plenty to discover. Thanks again
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    Self Defense ammo is designed to expand when entering the BG to make a big hole to keep the BG from hurting you quickly. This type of ammo comes in a box of 20 or 25 where as the FMJ & JHP has 50 to a box. JHP expands but is not in the same class as Self Defense ammo. Whatever brand of Self Defense ammo you get, it is very important that you try them in your gun to be sure your gun likes them. If it works in your gun continue to use that brand. Use the cheaper FMJ & JHP for the range to practice with, however many people use FMJ & JHP for their Self Defense ammo too. The gr in your ammo is not that important when most attacks happen within a couple of feet from you. My 36 gr 22LR ammo can put a good size hole in a 2X4 at 15 feet.
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    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    Serious question.....Don't need stats, or ballistic gel test results...just need a sesame street answer.

    Self defense ammo for a Glock-26.....I really don't understand all the variations of grain charges +P or +P+ or whatever else they say so I really do not understand the differences....so basically when I buy self defense ammo I am buying on the advise of someone who supposedly knows more about this than I do as I really don't know what I'm buying or why other than someone said it was good self defense ammo..

    On a tip from a friend, I am currently buying Federal HST 124g SD ammo....but I really have no idea why or what it does or does not do.....

    My question is simple....If you have a 9mm handgun what do you thinks is a proper SD ammo to carry and why....

    Sorry to hang everyone up like this, but I'm still learning.........
    My answer is equally simple.

    You have a Glock 26. It will reliably shoot anything that says 9mm on the box.

    Any of the premium self defense rounds from major manufacturer's (COR-BON, Speer, Hornady, Winchester) will work just fine provided you manage to hit your assailant.

    Hype and advertisements aside, there is no 'best' one. 124G Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Defense, Hornady Critical Duty, COR-BON 115g DPX, they all work if you hit what you are shooting at.

    Given the situation, unavailability of ammo at the moment, any premium self defense hollow point will work just fine.

    Don't over think it. Get some, carry the gun.

    Fitch
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    Serious question.....Don't need stats, or ballistic gel test results...just need a sesame street answer.

    Self defense ammo for a Glock-26.....I really don't understand all the variations of grain charges +P or +P+ or whatever else they say so I really do not understand the differences....so basically when I buy self defense ammo I am buying on the advise of someone who supposedly knows more about this than I do as I really don't know what I'm buying or why other than someone said it was good self defense ammo..
    The "Sesame Street" answer: In 9mm, pick a decent 124gr or 124gr +P load from a reputable ammo maker that performs reliably well in your gun, and you should be fine. For range practice, any weight (115gr, 124gr or 147gr) in FMJ ought to be fine for most of your practice shooting. The Speer Gold Dot bullet is a fine choice. Highly respected for its performance on the target, in terms of penetration and expansion. Nice bullet, there. Most cartridges with this should be a reasonable choice, presuming the cartridge works reliably well in your specific gun.

    Once you've learned more, worry about all the rest of the testing results and variations.


    The basics, though, require a little info.

    9mm is a caliber, just as .40S&W, .45ACP and the others. It's just a bullet-diameter/shape designation. You knew that much, of course.

    Weight of the bullet itself is measured in grains, as in: 115gr, 124gr, 147gr. That's the bullet, not the overall cartridge. 115gr roughly equals 0.263oz. (Conversion tool: click.) 147gr is heavier than 124gr of 115gr, obviously.

    Pressures are what +P, +P+ and "standard" are all about. They relate to the SAAMI (industry group) specs on cartridge load pressures, based on the cartridge size, the bullet weight and the amount of powder charge needed to shove the bullet with a given force out the barrel. Basically, SAAMI specs identify a given pressure as "standard." +P means over that pressure standard, by a bit. +P+ means over pressure by even more than that. Not all guns can handle the higher pressures. It'll depend on the quality/durability of the given gun. The manufacturer tells you, basically via the imprinting on the barrel and in the owner's manual.

    So.

    With 9mm, you might find a 115gr, 115gr +P, a 124gr standard-pressure, a 124gr +P, a 124gr +P+, and a 147gr or 147gr +P option on the shelves. The trick is to appreciate what your gun is capable of handling, what load performs best in your own gun (given it's barrel size, it's weight/balance, your comfort level with the given recoil "feel" with a given load). Beyond that, I generally check the ballistics tests for major loads I'm considering, whenever I am trying to select the "right" cartridge for my defensive 9mm pistol. For myself, I want a given minimum penetration and expansion, as gauged by calibrated gel tests; which I generally back up by my own side-of-beef type tests on wholly new cartridges. In a CZ P-01 9mm, I have found the DoubleTap 9mm 124gr JHP +P load to be most excellent, yielding great test (gel) results, good performance in my own tests, and great reliability and accuracy in my own gun.

    Still, I can find it tough to judge whether a given load's going to be best in my own gun. I love the DT 9mm 124gr JHP +P cartridge. I can describe the differences in recoil feel that other cartridges have, as compared to that one. And I rely upon basic gel test results and my own tests to judge whether a given cartridge is going to meet my performance minimums (penetration and expansion).

    But I can also see that this same DT 9mm 124gr JHP +P cartridge is a real bear in a much smaller gun, say the Kahr PM9 9mm. Much, much more blast, recoil than makes sense for that puny little gun. Lots of unburnt powder all over everything, including my hands. Fun, maybe, but then not so much after ~20rds fired. In that other gun, the Kahr PM9, I would much prefer a different cartridge that's got different characteristics, one that has a far lower powder charge that's better calibrated for shorter barrels, one that doesn't have so much blast flame out the barrel (to destroy my night vision), yet one that still yields reasonable penetration and expansion characteristics for the bullet. So, based on these factors, the puny little gun will typically run far better with a different choice, say a decent short-bbl variant of a 115gr +P or 124gr +P cartridge, one designed for smaller pistols.

    Hopefully that makes sufficient sense to matter. If not, just keep firing away with questions. It's not all that difficult, really, once you basically understand bullet weights (115gr, 124gr, 147gr), pressures (std, +P, +P+), and begin to appreciate variations in suitability for a given barrel length and strength of gun. So long as a bullet's on-target (terminal) ballistic performance (penetration, expansion) meets your minimum requirements for a defensive round, and so long as it's a reasonable match for your own gun, it should be considered a suitable choice.
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The "Sesame Street" answer: In 9mm, pick a decent 124gr or 124gr +P load from a reputable ammo maker that performs reliably well in your gun, and you should be fine. For range practice, any weight (115gr, 124gr or 147gr) in FMJ ought to be fine for most of your practice shooting. The Speer Gold Dot bullet is a fine choice. Highly respected for its performance on the target, in terms of penetration and expansion. Nice bullet, there. Most cartridges with this should be a reasonable choice, presuming the cartridge works reliably well in your specific gun.

    Once you've learned more, worry about all the rest of the testing results and variations.


    The basics, though, require a little info.

    9mm is a caliber, just as .40S&W, .45ACP and the others. It's just a bullet-diameter/shape designation. You knew that much, of course.

    Weight of the bullet itself is measured in grains, as in: 115gr, 124gr, 147gr. That's the bullet, not the overall cartridge. 115gr roughly equals 0.263oz. (Conversion tool: click.) 147gr is heavier than 124gr of 115gr, obviously.

    Pressures are what +P, +P+ and "standard" are all about. They relate to the SAAMI (industry group) specs on cartridge load pressures, based on the cartridge size, the bullet weight and the amount of powder charge needed to shove the bullet with a given force out the barrel. Basically, SAAMI specs identify a given pressure as "standard." +P means over that pressure standard, by a bit. +P+ means over pressure by even more than that. Not all guns can handle the higher pressures. It'll depend on the quality/durability of the given gun. The manufacturer tells you, basically via the imprinting on the barrel and in the owner's manual.

    So.

    With 9mm, you might find a 115gr, 115gr +P, a 124gr standard-pressure, a 124gr +P, a 124gr +P+, and a 147gr or 147gr +P option on the shelves. The trick is to appreciate what your gun is capable of handling, what load performs best in your own gun (given it's barrel size, it's weight/balance, your comfort level with the given recoil "feel" with a given load). Beyond that, I generally check the ballistics tests for major loads I'm considering, whenever I am trying to select the "right" cartridge for my defensive 9mm pistol. For myself, I want a given minimum penetration and expansion, as gauged by calibrated gel tests; which I generally back up by my own side-of-beef type tests on wholly new cartridges. In a CZ P-01 9mm, I have found the DoubleTap 9mm 124gr JHP +P load to be most excellent, yielding great test (gel) results, good performance in my own tests, and great reliability and accuracy in my own gun.

    Still, I can find it tough to judge whether a given load's going to be best in my own gun. I love the DT 9mm 124gr JHP +P cartridge. I can describe the differences in recoil feel that other cartridges have, as compared to that one. And I rely upon basic gel test results and my own tests to judge whether a given cartridge is going to meet my performance minimums (penetration and expansion).

    But I can also see that this same DT 9mm 124gr JHP +P cartridge is a real bear in a much smaller gun, say the Kahr PM9 9mm. Much, much more blast, recoil than makes sense for that puny little gun. Lots of unburnt powder all over everything, including my hands. Fun, maybe, but then not so much after ~20rds fired. In that other gun, the Kahr PM9, I would much prefer a different cartridge that's got different characteristics, one that has a far lower powder charge that's better calibrated for shorter barrels, one that doesn't have so much blast flame out the barrel (to destroy my night vision), yet one that still yields reasonable penetration and expansion characteristics for the bullet. So, based on these factors, the puny little gun will typically run far better with a different choice, say a decent short-bbl variant of a 115gr +P or 124gr +P cartridge, one designed for smaller pistols.

    Hopefully that makes sufficient sense to matter. If not, just keep firing away with questions. It's not all that difficult, really, once you basically understand bullet weights (115gr, 124gr, 147gr), pressures (std, +P, +P+), and begin to appreciate variations in suitability for a given barrel length and strength of gun. So long as a bullet's on-target (terminal) ballistic performance (penetration, expansion) meets your minimum requirements for a defensive round, and so long as it's a reasonable match for your own gun, it should be considered a suitable choice.
    I could not have said it better myself...... very understandable and informative...thank you......
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

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